Petty squabbling

[Mystophilus]

Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?” But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” Then He took a little child and set him in the midst of them. And when He had taken him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.” (Mark 9:33-7)
Does this remind anyone else of the “My church is better than your church” routine?

What will it take to lead enough Christians to tolerance?

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Be careful throwing around the word “tolerance”.

The issues that divide the Orthodox Churches, the Protestant communities, and non-Christians from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church are not mere lowly “petty squabbling”.

Luke 6:46-48
46"Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
47I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
48That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
49But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Mystophilus:

Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?” But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” Then He took a little child and set him in the midst of them. And when He had taken him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.” (Mark 9:33-7)Does this remind anyone else of the “My church is better than your church” routine?

What will it take to lead enough Christians to tolerance?

People are unteachable, cussed, egotistic, full of pride & self-love, all but devils in human form. That, sad to say, is human nature for you - if persecution by Nazis and Communists is not enough to bring Christians together, mere reasonableness & tolerance will never do so.​

People are incredibly stubborn, and that is all there is to it

That doesn’t say much for human nature, I’m afraid. Christian cussedness and stubbornness is more cussed and more stubborn than that of the “natural man”, according to the principle that the worst corruption is the corruption of what is best.

Which is presumably why the NT tells us that “judgement begins at the household of God”. ##

 

[Trelow]

You tolerate a cold, you tolerate an obnoxious neighbor, you tolerate chiggers; you don’t tolerate someone skipping and danging on their merry little way to hell.

Great book written by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, “Truth and Tolerance” tinyurl.com/d86v7

Great, although difficult read. Enjoy.

 

[Della]

## People are unteachable, cussed, egotistic, full of pride & self-love, all but devils in human form. That, sad to say, is human nature for you - if persecution by Nazis and Communists is not enough to bring Christians together, mere reasonableness & tolerance will never do so.

People are incredibly stubborn, and that is all there is to it

That doesn’t say much for human nature, I’m afraid. Christian cussedness and stubbornness is more cussed and more stubborn than that of the “natural man”, according to the principle that the worst corruption is the corruption of what is best.

Which is presumably why the NT tells us that “judgement begins at the household of God”. ##

You’ve described what we can see of fallen human nature. And naturally, due to our corrupted nature, darkened intellect, and weakened will we fallen human beings are going to each think ourselves right and our brothers wrong.

But, there is also the grace of God working in the human heart, mind and will. And God’s grace is given to the world, including those who are separated from the Church by denomination who know no better because they were brought up in that denomination.

For many people denying their denomination is like denying their parents or their heritage or their nationality. It’s not as simple as squabbling over who is the greatest, but more like patriotism. And converting is akin in emotion, for many, of giving up one’s citizenship in order to be made into a citizen of another country.

There are many factors feeding the split within Christendom. And certainly hubris and sin have their part, but not all. We should remember that so that we don’t become cynics and put ourselves in danger of losing our faith. Yes?

 

[Mystophilus]

## People are unteachable, cussed, egotistic, full of pride & self-love, all but devils in human form. That, sad to say, is human nature for you - if persecution by Nazis and Communists is not enough to bring Christians together, mere reasonableness & tolerance will never do so.

People are incredibly stubborn, and that is all there is to it

That doesn’t say much for human nature, I’m afraid. Christian cussedness and stubbornness is more cussed and more stubborn than that of the “natural man”, according to the principle that the worst corruption is the corruption of what is best.

Which is presumably why the NT tells us that “judgement begins at the household of God”. ##

Thanks
I guess that takes me back to what I suspected the answer would be: Divine Intervention.

 

[Mystophilus]

Della:

There are many factors feeding the split within Christendom. And certainly hubris and sin have their part, but not all. We should remember that so that we don’t become cynics and put ourselves in danger of losing our faith. Yes?

I always find myself at a loss when dealing with plural pronouns in respect to faith, because I know that my beliefs are less than common. Still, there is surely no danger of us losing our faith if our faith is predicated upon God, rather than upon the behaviour of other believers.

Thank you for pointing out the cathexis issue, however; regardless of how many times I have pointed that out to others, I still manage to forget that much of the vehemence ‘in defence of faith’ is defensiveness about one’s own identity.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Where do you draw the line? Cries for “tolerance” often lead to acceptance of deviance.

What “should” be tolerated?

 

[MariaG]

Mystophilus:

Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?” But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” Then He took a little child and set him in the midst of them. And when He had taken him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.” (Mark 9:33-7)Does this remind anyone else of the “My church is better than your church” routine?

What will it take to lead enough Christians to tolerance?

No. **But I do not believe any Christian Church has a “my church is better than you Church” attitude, **not even my misguided fundamentalist brothers and sister in Christ.

But I do believe most churches believe 100% that their church is teaching the truth of Christ. What is the point of going to a church if you don’t believe they teach the truth of Christ?

And because I believe the Catholic Church has that truth 100%, I will always speak that truth and risk being labeled many things for His sake.

I think that if those verses say that to a person, it speaks more of a person’s problems of intolerance of absolute truth in favor of a false unity.

 

[Mystophilus]

MariaG:

No. **But I do not believe any Christian Church has a “my church is better than you Church” attitude, **not even my misguided fundamentalist brothers and sister in Christ.

The question was not so much about churches, but more about individuals, many of whom express that sentiment in these fora, largely for the reasons outlined by Della and Gottle, I believe.

But I do believe most churches believe 100% that their church is teaching the truth of Christ. What is the point of going to a church if you don’t believe they teach the truth of Christ?

• Unity * Community * Inspiration * Alternative viewpoints * Socialisation * Education
  There are undoubtably others, but those were the first which came to mind.

I think that if those verses say that to a person, it speaks more of a person’s problems of intolerance of absolute truth in favor of a false unity.

Perhaps, but some people might claim that only God has the absolute truth, and that true unity can be achieved by the realisation that, as we are all flawed, our flaws are less significant than the honesty of our attempts, a message which, oddly enough, is echoed throughout the Hebrew and Christian scriptures and the writings of the Fathers.

 

[Trelow]

Mystophilus:

What is the point of going to a church if you don’t believe they teach the truth of Christ?

• Unity * Community * Inspiration * Alternative viewpoints * Socialisation * Education
  There are undoubtably others, but those were the first which came to mind.
  .

eh, I’ll go with to give glory and honor, praise and worship to almighty God, three in one.

 

[Trelow]

Mystophilus:

• Unity * Community * Inspiration * Alternative viewpoints * Socialisation * Education
  There are undoubtably others, but those were the first which came to mind.
  .

You can get that at the barber shop.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Trelow:

You tolerate a cold, you tolerate an obnoxious neighbor, you tolerate chiggers; you don’t tolerate someone skipping and danging on their merry little way to hell.

Great book written by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, “Truth and Tolerance” tinyurl.com/d86v7

Great, although difficult read. Enjoy.

God seems to tolerate it. Christ did not force those who did not make the choices He hoped for from them to do other than they had.​

People can’t be “done good to” against their wills - we have to allow people the same freedom to damn themselves that we exercise in our own choices of evil.

Besides, what is the alternative to tolerance of other people’s not agreeing with us, even in what we hold most important - torturing them until they agree ? Execution, perhaps ? Massacre ? Imprisonment ? Exile ? They’ve all been tried - and the net result (increase in human misery apart, that is) has been to get Christians an appalling reputation: which has it has been child’s play to exploit all Christians in general. So even self-interest requires us to be tolerant.

Intolerance panders to the desire in human nature for quick results without the bother of spending hard work and time to attain them - it’s a form of cutting corners; so, not a good idea at all. God takes time with us, a lot of time - if we want to “be like [our] Father in Heaven”, we must be prepared to do the same for others, just as He does. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

HappyCatholic01:

Where do you draw the line? Cries for “tolerance” often lead to acceptance of deviance.

No doubt - and then, sometimes tolerance is exactly what is called for. Sometimes opposition to tolerance of whatever-it-might-be comes from less than admirable motives; selfishness is not the preserve only of those on one side of a question. It’s not purged away bre belonging to party X or Churtch Y - it’s a universal problem, which stultifies the efforts of every single one of us on earth to be and do what we should.​

What “should” be tolerated?

Almost everything anyone ever finds objectionable, from people’s nauseating personal habits to their countless faults.​

The only limitations are set by the Will of God, by conscience, by our duties to ourselves or our neighbours, or by legal enactments.

My tolerance of your stealing my car would be wrong - my tolerating your committing bigamy would be equally wrong, especially if my tolerance expressed itself by helping you to commit bigamy. If you were extremely unhygienic, I would not want my daughter to marry you - but I might have to tolerate such a thing, if you ran off together.

Tolerance of a course of action or an attitude is sometimes better than insisting on what is in principle the best state of things.

Tolerance has many functions and applications - that’s why it is such a big subject. ##

 

[Trelow]

## God seems to tolerate it. Christ did not force those who did not make the choices He hoped for from them to do other than they had.

People can’t be “done good to” against their wills - we have to allow people the same freedom to damn themselves that we exercise in our own choices of evil.

Besides, what is the alternative to tolerance of other people’s not agreeing with us, even in what we hold most important - torturing them until they agree ? Execution, perhaps ? Massacre ? Imprisonment ? Exile ? They’ve all been tried - and the net result (increase in human misery apart, that is) has been to get Christians an appalling reputation: which has it has been child’s play to exploit all Christians in general. So even self-interest requires us to be tolerant.

Intolerance panders to the desire in human nature for quick results without the bother of spending hard work and time to attain them - it’s a form of cutting corners; so, not a good idea at all. God takes time with us, a lot of time - if we want to “be like [our] Father in Heaven”, we must be prepared to do the same for others, just as He does. ##

Do-hubba?

Are we talking about the same thing here?

 

[Topher]

I think that the problem in this thread is that the kind of tolerance that is being advocated is a sort of false tolerance. True tolerance is tolerance of persons, not necessarily of their false beliefs or sinful practices. Jesus would not aprove of Catholics tolerating the false beliefs of protestants because Christ said, “I am the Way, THE TRUTH, and the life.” He demands that we follow truth because to follow truth is to follow Christ. So these debates between different Christian denominations is not petty. They raise substantial questions about substantial issues. And these questions should be raised so that we can have the TRUE answer so that we can follow he who is the TRUTH.

 

[MariaG]

Mystophilus:

The question was not so much about churches, but more about individuals, many of whom express that sentiment in these fora, largely for the reasons outlined by Della and Gottle, I believe.

Okay, I will restate it. I do not think any individual, except a rare one, expresses a “my church is better than you church” attitude when it specifically comes to doctrine. I think the attitude is my church teaches truth, or a more complete truth. A very different thing than my church is better than your church.

• Unity
• Community
• Inspiration
• Alternative viewpoints
• Socialisation
• Education

There are undoubtably others, but those were the first which came to mind.

If these reasons are more important than truth, I truly feel sorry for those people. While I always picked churches based on the above, I would leave if the truth was not taught in all things. Not neccessarily the truth from the pulpit, (important, but individuals can be wrong) but I actually would look into the truth the “official church” denomination espoused.

Perhaps, but some people might claim that only God has the absolute truth, and that true unity can be achieved by the realisation that, as we are all flawed, our flaws are less significant than the honesty of our attempts, a message which, oddly enough, is echoed throughout the Hebrew and Christian scriptures and the writings of the Fathers.

The Catholic Church, unlike some others, actually acknowledges that honesty of our attempts can make it possible for a man who has never even heard the gospel to be saved.

But to focus solely on the message of honesty of attempts and human flaws, one then has to ignore the messages that are filled in the NT and OT telling us to be Holy. Be ye Holy. Be perfect as your Lord is perfect.

While it is true that God is the only one to have ALL truth, it is wrong to think that there is not a “more complete” truth available in some churches as opposed to others. God helps us to understand that which has been revealed as we grow in Christ. And it is our responsibility to keep seeking and learning.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I found these on another thread.

Doesn’t look like Christ or the apostles were trying to teach tolerance of wrong beliefs.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned: and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
Romans 16:17-18

“I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.” 1 Cor. 1:10

“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.” 2 Tim. 4:3-4

“There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.” 2 Pet. 2:1

“In them (Paul’s epistles) there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.” 2 Pet. 3:16-17

“Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.” Psalm 127:1

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
2 Pet. 1:20-21

In Acts 8:27-40, the eunuch was trying to read Isaiah when Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?” But he said, “Why, how can I, unless someone shows me?” Since Philip had been filled by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, he was able to explain the truth of Isaiah to the eunuch.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
2 Thess. 2:15

“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”
Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23

“…and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” John 10:16

“You shall not do as we are now doing; here, everyone does what seems right to himself…”
Deuteronomy 12:8, Judges 17:6, Judges 21:25

“…Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are not concerned with anyone’s opinion. You do not regard a person’s status but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.” Mark 12:14 also Matt. 22:16
(Sorry Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Smyth, etc. but your opinions don’t matter to God.)

“If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” Matt. 18:15-17 (final authority is given to the Church!)

“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.” Acts 20:29-30

“And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.’”
Matthew 12:25

Isn’t this exactly what is happening to non-Catholic ecclesial communities? They are imploding due to these never ending splits. The splinters are getting smaller and smaller, and eventually if this keeps up, each member theoretically will be his own ecclesial community and his own pope.

“Has Christ been divided up?”
1Corinthians 1:13

Originally posted by JSmitty2005 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1042127#post1042127

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

The word “tolerance” is often used today to describe something that has nothing to do whatsoever with true tolerance at all.

The word is still used in its proper sense in science and engineering. There, it defines limits between which any one position is as acceptable as any other. If I am making a cabinet, and must cut a piece of material to six feet plus or minus one quarter of an inch, a piece cut to anywhere between 5’11 3/4" and 6’1/4" is just fine. But if it’s shorter or longer than the boundaries, it can’t be accepted.

Today, the word is very often used as a synonym for indifference. “So what if it’s too short or too lone. I should use it anyway” would be the statement that goes with the example above. No, you shouldn’t.

The effect of the misuse of the concept in secular culture today is to destroy the whole concept of tolerance by ignoring the concept of limits or boundaries. Elimiinating limits or boundaries is not being tolerant; it is being inexcusably permissive, and that is not an option for the Church, or her members.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[RCCDefender]

Trelow:

Do-hubba?

Are we talking about the same thing here?

Sorry, I couldn’t help it!!!