Pews are a Heresy?

[Novocastrian]

The ‘unwashed masses’ were lucky to see the elevation of the Body and Blood - typically there was a screen that separated the celebrants from the people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen

Lutherans were first to remove them, followed quickly by the Catholics during the counter-reformation. Anglicans kept theirs longer.

True, but with two qualifications.

(1) Traditional English rood-screens are such that one can normally see through them fairly easily.

(2) The Prayer Book seems to envisage that communicants will be seated in the chancel, where the monastic choirs would have been. Often they’d be right around the altar.

 

[Nine_Two]

I have only ever been to one Orthodox Church that didn’t have pews, and that was a chapel located within a monastery. Other than that on my travels, in both the Old World and the New, I have exclusively seen churches with pews (or chairs). My own parish has a limited number of pews so that at least half of the parish stands.

Pews are certainly not considered heresy by the Orthodox Church.

 

[Cromwell4]

Do you think Jesus & the apostles all stood around during the Last Supper?
I think that is your answer.

(Why do folk worry about motes yet can’t see the beams falling down?)

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Hello Everyone!

So, I was listening to some Chant from both East and West Catholics and I found in the comment section on youtube, another “Apologetics session” (like not even close ) discussing the Orthodox and Catholic faiths. They were all the basic arguments and such until I saw this one post by an Orthodox brethren. He seemed ill informed about the Catholic Church but what struck me is that, while listing off all of the RC heresies, he included Pews to be a heresy. I will be honest, I didn’t see that one coming.

Now, I have seen Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic videos where the Lay faithful didn’t sit down and had no pews. And I have always wondered why.

So its a twofold question.

1.) Are pews a heresy or “modernization” of some sort?

2.) Why don’t the Orthodox and EC’s have pews?

Thanks and God Bless you all

Bballer32

It’s simply posturing on that guys part, nothing more.

Many Orthodox churches have pews, maybe he should take it up with the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of America.

Most Orthodox churches I have seen with pews were Greek.

 

[dzheremi]

In my little (Coptic Orthodox) church, we don’t have pews, but we do have individual chairs that have little hooks on the side so that they can be interlocked if necessary (though they never are). The little chairs are better because this way we can sit during the sermon (one of only two times during the whole liturgy when people sit), but can move them back a bit if necessary to make prostrations/metania. A lot of Coptic churches in the West do have pews, though, since they were purchased or donated from Protestant or Catholic communities that have since relocated/downsized/gone extinct. The only churches I’ve seen so far without pews have been in pictures from Egypt, though I’ve seen pews there, too. I doubt you’d find Coptic people getting too up in arms about this issue. Our church has a lot more pressing matters to worry about.

http://islamicommentary.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CopticChurchRaleigh.jpg
Pictured: Arabic language students from Duke University visit the local Coptic Orthodox Church in Raleigh…clearly not afraid of pews!

 

[benjohnson]

Do you think Jesus & the apostles all stood around during the Last Supper?
I think that is your answer.

It’s not completely outside the possibility that the last supper was standing for some of the participants - in order to have chairs or benches, you need a lot of wood and a fair amount of carpentry skill in joining the wood together. If you visit around the world in places that are developmentally in the same situation as the biblical world - you’ll find a lot less chairs and benches.

The rarity of chairs from ancient times comes forward in the respect we give to the “chairman” , “the judicial bench”, or even the “chair of St. Peter”. In ancient times, rather than stand, a Rabbi would sit in order to indicate he was teaching - so our Lord would have certainly had a chair at the Last Supper. The others… perhaps not.

 

[Nine_Two]

I doubt you’d find Coptic people getting too up in arms about this issue. Our church has a lot more pressing matters to worry about.

In my experience it is only Catechumens and neophytes who get wound up by this sort of thing. Like the Copts, we have bigger issues.

 

[Nine_Two]

It’s not completely outside the possibility that the last supper was standing for some of the participants - in order to have chairs or benches, you need a lot of wood and a fair amount of carpentry skill in joining the wood together. If you visit around the world in places that are developmentally in the same situation as the biblical world - you’ll find a lot less chairs and benches.

The rarity of chairs from ancient times comes forward in the respect we give to the “chairman” , “the judicial bench”, or even the “chair of St. Peter”. In ancient times, rather than stand, a Rabbi would sit in order to indicate he was teaching - so our Lord would have certainly had a chair at the Last Supper. The others… perhaps not.

Actually they wouldn’t have been sitting or standing, they would have been reclining, as that was the normal posture for eating meals in those days.

Therefore churches should get la-z-boys that we may all enjoy the posture of Jesus!

 

[Bballer32]

Actually they wouldn’t have been sitting or standing, they would have been reclining, as that was the normal posture for eating meals in those days.

Therefore churches should get la-z-boys that we may all enjoy the posture of Jesus!

AMEN!

 

[benjohnson]

Therefore churches should get la-z-boys that we may all enjoy the posture of Jesus!

:bounce:

https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-frc3/373013_542096865836544_1637089364_n.jpg

 

[Trebor135]

Actually they wouldn’t have been sitting or standing, they would have been reclining, as that was the normal posture for eating meals in those days.

Therefore churches should get la-z-boys that we may all enjoy the posture of Jesus!

 

[Brendan_64]

Do you think Jesus & the apostles all stood around during the Last Supper?
I think that is your answer.

I think you’ll find that they were likely to have sat on the floor and eaten. Chairs were not used by ordinary people in 1st century Judea. They may, or may not have sat on cushions, but they would have sat on the floor.

 

[MorEphrem]

There are certain rules that certain Greeks get weirdly obsessed about and claim everyone who doesn’t follow their rules are heretics - seemingly similar to what they accuse Latins of. The obsession with pews is an exclusively Greek pet peeve.

Anyway, standing the entire time (or as much as one can handle) keeps the person militant and is an external sign that we are ready at any moment. We are not just souls tethered to bodies - but souls and bodies, hence why mental disposition follows from physical disposition. I feel much more alert and focused in prayer if I’m standing, as opposed to kneeling or sitting (people will try it once and complain, but if you get use to it, I promise it’s more efficacious).

Plus the one thing that I really don’t like about pews is that it inhibits oneself from prostrating. It’s not that big of a deal though - if one wishes to prostrate, all you have to do is step into the aisle.

I think you’ll find that they were likely to have sat on the floor and eaten. Chairs were not used by ordinary people in 1st century Judea. They may, or may not have sat on cushions, but they would have sat on the floor.

Slight correction, friend. They would’ve been recline, i.e. lying down - hence why it is possible for the Beloved Disciple to recline against Christ (which is a great honor to be reclined against the host).

 

[Cromwell4]

Arabs & latter day traditional Bedu & Palestinians do NOT recline at meal time. They sit in a circle cross-legged around a large central serving dish. I guess Jesus & his friends did the same.

 

[Nine_Two]

Arabs & latter day traditional Bedu & Palestinians do NOT recline at meal time. They sit in a circle cross-legged around a large central serving dish. I guess Jesus & his friends did the same.

Modern Arab practices have no more to do with what was done in the Levant 2,000 years ago than modern Italian practices do.

John 13:23 specifically says they were reclining (more specifically that St. John was, but it would be odd that only one was).

 

[josie_L]

For what it’s worth, the church I attend has pews, but then Canada isn’t a traditionally Orthodox country.

I’m very thankful to be able to sit down during the liturgy, because I’m often tired on a Sunday morning and have on occasion felt queasy. (One time it was hot outside but the air conditioning wasn’t on in the building: I had to stay seated for something like half the liturgy to make sure I didn’t throw up/faint/etc. in the stifling atmosphere. The week after things were much better, to say the least.)

There’s no reason to be legalistic about pews. It’s better to sit down and pray/chant attentively than to stand up and be focusing on how uncomfortable one is, after all.

I went to a couple of Orthodox Churches (in Montreal), one for a wedding (Syrian Orthodox), and one for a funeral (Greek Orthodox), both churches had pews!

 

[Aramis]

I have only ever been to one Orthodox Church that didn’t have pews, and that was a chapel located within a monastery. Other than that on my travels, in both the Old World and the New, I have exclusively seen churches with pews (or chairs). My own parish has a limited number of pews so that at least half of the parish stands.

Pews are certainly not considered heresy by the Orthodox Church.

And, of the almost a dozen Orthdoox parishes I’ve been to, I’ve NEVER seen pews, tho’ I’ve seen benches along the side and back walls, and in one, chairs. And in the 30-40 I’ve seen in videos, only one had pews, and one had leaning rails.

So, while the Orthodox don’t condemn it, it’s certainly not universal that they embrace them, either. Also, ROCOR and AO parishes that almost exclusively celebrate the Western Rite are quite likely to have pews, from what I’ve read.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Orthodox:

My GOA parish had pews…and knelt on Sundays.
My OCA turned ROCOR parish had a few pews around the walls and open space in the middle…we only sat for homily.
My ROCOR parish has a few chairs for the elderly and infirm…the rest of us only sit for the homily and then we sit on the floor.
The GOA Cathedral in DC has pews.
The Antiochian parish near my old GOA parish had pews.
A Serbian parish we visited for a pan-Orthodox event had pews.

Pews are not a heresy. They are a westernization. Some people prefer them and some people prefer not having them.

 

[Nine_Two]

And, of the almost a dozen Orthdoox parishes I’ve been to, I’ve NEVER seen pews, tho’ I’ve seen benches along the side and back walls, and in one, chairs. And in the 30-40 I’ve seen in videos, only one had pews, and one had leaning rails.

So, while the Orthodox don’t condemn it, it’s certainly not universal that they embrace them, either. Also, ROCOR and AO parishes that almost exclusively celebrate the Western Rite are quite likely to have pews, from what I’ve read.

I’m counting chairs as synonymous with pews, after all any objection to one would also go against the other.

Strange thing was on my visit to Antioch I saw a (Latin) Catholic Church without pews, but the Orthodox Church I saw had them.

 

[Aramis]

I’m counting chairs as synonymous with pews, after all any objection to one would also go against the other…

You’d be wrong on that score. I object to pews, but not chairs, as a simple matter of practicality for byzantine worship and general cleanliness.

Chairs are readily movable, but pews are affixed to the structure. You can’t readily remove pews to make room for prostrations, nor for cleaning the floors. Pews are inherently less suitable for public worship space than freestanding chairs, or even chairs that bind to each other.

Further, pews that are suitable for when the bishop is celebrating the HDL leave a very wide aisle in the center the rest of the time; meanwhile, with individual chairs, the aisle can be widened when the bishop is celebrating the HDL, but narrowed down again when celebrating only the normal liturgies (without the clergy stainding and sitting in the middle of the aisle).