Pews in Eastern Catholic Churches

[theistgal]

On the other hand, he did put pews back in.

There’s nothing wrong with pews. Every Orthodox church I’ve ever visited has pews. Some have kneelers too. The only Eastern church I’ve ever visited that didn’t have pews was at an Eastern **Catholic **monastery.

 

[UncleBill]

There’s nothing wrong with pews. Every Orthodox church I’ve ever visited has pews. Some have kneelers too. The only Eastern church I’ve ever visited that didn’t have pews was at an Eastern **Catholic **monastery.

I think I know just what monastery that would be. I hope to be living near it very soon!

I was hoping Fr. James was going to take the pews out of Annunciation in Anaheim. I know one parishioner there, when they were raising money to pay for the pews offered to give the amount of money they asked for a pew if they would leave a spot pewless. Fr. George did not oblige.

 

[theistgal]

I think I know just what monastery that would be. I hope to be living near it very soon!

I was hoping Fr. James was going to take the pews out of Annunciation in Anaheim. I know one parishioner there, when they were raising money to pay for the pews offered to give the amount of money they asked for a pew if they would leave a spot pewless. Fr. George did not oblige.

Well, as someone who has arthritis, I’m grateful for the pews! Maybe there could be a compromise - oh wait, I forgot, that’s what Eastern Catholicism already is. Never mind.

 

[UncleBill]

Well, as someone who has arthritis, I’m grateful for the pews! Maybe there could be a compromise - oh wait, I forgot, that’s what Eastern Catholicism already is. Never mind.

Even churches with no pews have someplace for folks who need to sit.

Lets loose the pews!

 

[malphono]

There’s nothing wrong with pews. Every Orthodox church I’ve ever visited has pews. Some have kneelers too. The only Eastern church I’ve ever visited that didn’t have pews was at an Eastern **Catholic **monastery.

I’ve never paid much attention to the presence or absence of kneelers, but yes, at least insofar as the pews are concerned, my limited experience with GO is exactly the same.

Not directed to you personally, theistgal, but I’ve actually never been able to grasp the aversion that some on this forum have to pews. The whole “oh, it’s a Protestant thing” is just plain tired and doesn’t hold water. Sure, in former times (and I don’t mean even 50 or even 100 years ago) pews were alien to the East and Orient. But so what? IMO, if the existence of pews is the worst abuse a Church has to deal with, that Church is indeed blessed. To those who might think otherwise, I’d suggest trying a post-conciliar Maronite service sometime. What I say will then become more than crystal clear.

 

[Peter_J]

There’s nothing wrong with pews.

Anathema! Anathema!

 

[theistgal]

Anathema! Anathema!

Oh, pew.

Come on, I like pews! They’re great for us cantors to rest our Teal Terrors on.

 

[Aramis]

There’s nothing wrong with pews. Every Orthodox church I’ve ever visited has pews. Some have kneelers too. The only Eastern church I’ve ever visited that didn’t have pews was at an Eastern **Catholic **monastery.

I’ve never seen an Orthodox church that has pews. And keep in mind - I live in a state where only the Catholics outnumber the Orthodox. (well, if you combine all the protestants together… Alaska’s about 24% Catholic, 19% Orthodox. And over 1% Quaker/Mennonite.)

Mind you, that’s 4 Orthodox parishes in Anchorage of two different churches (3 OCA, one Antiochian), 2 village parishes (OCA), 1 Old Believer parish, and 2 other OCA parishes in Alaska (Juneau, Kenai), plus one each in California and Oregon. And not counting the Coptic parish - they had chairs, not pews.

I don’t object to chairs at all - but pews make lenten vespers a real problem. And are a problem for folks in wheelchairs or using walkers. When we used chairs, for folks in walkers we would pull the chair from in front of them so they could have room to turn it and get into the aisle.

Further, outside of Easter and Christmas, we used fewer rows, allowing for more room. Two fewer rows most of the year makes a huge difference in accessibility.

Oh, and when we had chairs, the HDL didn’t make the center aisle and processions cramped. We just took one chair off each row, and made an extra row in the back by taking an inch off the row-to-row distance…

 

[theistgal]

I’ve never seen an Orthodox church that has pews.

Perhaps it’s more of a North American thing than a Western Christian thing.

Here’s a comment from the website from Annunciation Greek Orthodox church in Norfolk, VA:

*In North America, we have tended to build our churches with pews, and since we have them, we need to figure out when we may sit and when we should stand. *

and here’s a photo of the pews at St. George Serbian Orthodox Church in Oakland, CA:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd....20x320/71523_522468904453200_1795087772_n.jpg

 

[CDB1718]

Perhaps it’s more of a North American thing than a Western Christian thing.

Here’s a comment from the website from Annunciation Greek Orthodox church in Norfolk, VA:

*In North America, we have tended to build our churches with pews, and since we have them, we need to figure out when we may sit and when we should stand. *

and here’s a photo of the pews at St. George Serbian Orthodox Church in Oakland, CA:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd....20x320/71523_522468904453200_1795087772_n.jpg

The Russian influence on the Alaskan churches would explain the difference in what Aramis sees near him and what most people in the US see in Orthodox churches.

This is from our parish website.

In the preface to the American edition of his book The Orthodox Liturgy: The Development of the Eucharistic Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite, Hugh Wybrew explained one distinctive part of the American church:

In North America Orthodox liturgical practice has changed in a number of important respects in recent decades, and the setting in which the Liturgy is celebrated has been modified, too. In most Orthodox churches, of whatever national background, the congregation is provided with pews. Only in more traditionalist Russian parishes, and parishes made up of converts to Orthodoxy zealous for tradition, does the congregation still stand throughout the service.

The same is true by-and-large for Eastern Catholic churches in the United States, including St. Sophia’s, which does have pews.

 

[MorEphrem]

I’ve never paid much attention to the presence or absence of kneelers, but yes, at least insofar as the pews are concerned, my limited experience with GO is exactly the same.

Not directed to you personally, theistgal, but I’ve actually never been able to grasp the aversion that some on this forum have to pews. The whole “oh, it’s a Protestant thing” is just plain tired and doesn’t hold water. Sure, in former times (and I don’t mean even 50 or even 100 years ago) pews were alien to the East and Orient. But so what? IMO, if the existence of pews is the worst abuse a Church has to deal with, that Church is indeed blessed. To those who might think otherwise, I’d suggest trying a post-conciliar Maronite service sometime. What I say will then become more than crystal clear.

Amen

 

[Aramis]

Perhaps it’s more of a North American thing than a Western Christian thing.

Here’s a comment from the website from Annunciation Greek Orthodox church in Norfolk, VA:

*In North America, we have tended to build our churches with pews, and since we have them, we need to figure out when we may sit and when we should stand. *

Alaska IS in North America. And in the US. So, really, it’s NOT a “North American Thing”.

But note that the Orthodox parishes I’ve been to have all been Pacific Northwest - areas where the OCA are mostly ethnic Russians or ethnic Native Americans (whose ancestors converted under Russian influence). But that doesn’t explain the lack of pews (or even chairs) in the local Antiochian Orthodox parish.

 

[5Loaves]

Perhaps it’s more of a North American thing than a Western Christian thing.

Here’s a comment from the website from Annunciation Greek Orthodox church in Norfolk, VA:

From that article

It is fully acceptable (even preferable) to stand for the entire service.

I was taught you never sit after the Great Entrance, unless for reason of serious disability, illness, **old ** age.

Thank you for the link. I think it’s a good reference.

Alaska IS in North America. And in the US. So, really, it’s NOT a “North American Thing”.

But note that the Orthodox parishes I’ve been to have all been Pacific Northwest - areas where the OCA are mostly ethnic Russians or ethnic Native Americans (whose ancestors converted under Russian influence). But that doesn’t explain the lack of pews (or even chairs) in the local Antiochian Orthodox parish.

None of the Russian Orthodox or OCA parishes around here have pews. Our Russian Greek Catholic parish has chairs around the perimeter, as do the Orthodox, more often benches. The ROCOR Cathedral near us just has two long rows of benches along the back/west wall.

All the Greeks Orthodox parishes here have pews, or have chairs filling the entire area, and have organs. I’ve never been in a Greek service where the priest, or the Metropolitan, hasn’t turned to the people and vigorously gestured “sit!”, and which point the majority of people, who had been standing, now join the few who were already sitting. Apparently those standing did not feel the need to sit, tho when told, emphatically to do so were obedient and did, myself included. I haven’t been in the local Antiochian Churches but I’ve asked and been told they have pews (no organs that I know of).

The problem of course with pews, or chairs in row upon row, is that you cannot comfortably bow when crossing yourself. It’s not unusual to bow and touch the ground with your fingertips at certain times in Russian parishes, which obviously is impossible when a pew or chair if immediately in front of you. It’s clearly impossible to prostrate when that is called for. During services that call for prostrations when I’m at the Greek Cathedral there are usually only about 20 people there and so there is no problem moving out into the plushly carpeted aisles to prostrate and nearly everyone does just that.

The other restirction pews create is for the clergy. When the deacon, or priest incenses the church and the people it seems very ackward to me when the people are stuck in pews. In our tradition during the Great Entrance the clergy and altar servers come out into the people and walk as far into where we are as there is room. The people shuffle around to make an open space for the procession, and most of the faithful grab the hem of the vestment of the priest who carries the chalice, kissing the hem as he passes by. Matushka Frederica Mathewes-Green describes this, #5, in her "12 Things’’ article so apparently this is done in her jurisdiction as well.

I’ve not traveled to Greece but my friends who have tell me there aren’t pews (or organs) in the churches there.

I truly hate pews. I feel completely out of place worshiping in a pew. I’m very grateful to have the Greek Orthodox near by and love the true Byzantine chant the male cantors do so well at the Cathedral, but I do hate the pews. I’m spared the organ which is pretty much restricted to Sundays, when I’m never there.

 

[Symeon]

The only Eastern church I’ve ever visited that didn’t have pews was at an Eastern **Catholic **monastery.

A small correction, theistgal - you have been to Russian Greek-Catholic parish that has no pews, though it does have chairs.

I’m with 5Loaves on this. Along with the reasons she gave, forcing people to arrange themselves in neat rows they can’t easily move from changes the dynamics of our way of worship.

Interestingly, when my daughter was younger and somewhat difficult in church, she was generally better behaved in the pewless Russian parish than the Ruthenian parish we also frequented - I think, because she could see and hear better what was going on, and had more freedom to move around.

 

[5Loaves]

The other restirction pews create is for the clergy. When the deacon, or priest incenses the church and the people it seems very ackward to me when the people are stuck in pews. In our tradition during the Great Entrance the clergy and altar servers come out into the people and walk as far into where we are as there is room. The people shuffle around to make an open space for the procession, and most of the faithful grab the hem of the vestment of the priest who carries the chalice, kissing the hem as he passes by. Matushka Frederica Mathewes-Green describes this, #5, in her "12 Things’’ article so apparently this is done in her jurisdiction as well.

Something came up today that also reminded me of Hierarchical Divine Liturgy. When there are pews it seems like it would be neigh impossible for the bishop, metropolitan, etc to vest. Now I have been in a number of situations where the bishop presents already vested-- Met Tikhon (OCA) did so here on Pentecost, and a number of times I’ve been in Liturgy with Bishop Benjamin (OCA SF) in his cathedral likewise he was already vested, Other times at other parishes he remained in his ryassa and sang with the choir. I for one find it very moving when they do vest before going into the Holy Place, such as this time,. I was standing beside this camera so I had the same vantage point. Frankly, it always makes me cry… But I get that it requires the protodeacons etc who know what to do to make it happen.

I’ve never been at a Greek Orthodox Hierarchical Divine Liturgy where they vested. Both at the Cathedral in SF, and the one in Oakland the Met stood at the cathedra and the clergy lined up parallel to the iconostasis. Had he vested I assume it would have happened there. Instead he remained in his exorason during Liturgy, not a celebrant. At a Greek Orthodox parish in San Jose the Metropolitan. stayed at the cathedra in exorason and there was no lining up of clergy in front of him. Perhaps that is how it’s done in Greece when there are no pews. It could be a difference between Byzantine style and Slav style. I have no idea. I don’t recall Fr Hopko talking of a difference in his podcast on prayers when the bishop vests. Next time I see Met.Nikitas I will ask him, if I can remember. It’s likely to be autumn before that would happen.

 

[5Loaves]

Interestingly, when my daughter was younger and somewhat difficult in church, she was generally better behaved in the pewless Russian parish than the Ruthenian parish we also frequented - I think, because she could see and hear better what was going on, and had more freedom to move around.

I absolutely think pew-less is easier for children.

I will add that in the Greek churches I have been in they have had the festal icon, for venerating, in the vestibule, whereas in the Russian and OCA parishes here those are up front closer to the iconostasis. The whole venerating of icons is affected by pews. Who is going to get out of a pew to go venerate an icon, and you can stand near a favorite icon, but can’t really sit near one in a pew?

Again, even in Greece with no pews maybe this arrangement of the kissing icons is different from the Slav way. I want to be clear that tho I truly dislike pews and organs I have a great love for the Greek Orthodox and I do not want to be “dissing” them! I am so grateful for how welcoming they always are of me. My life would be very different if I could not worship with them during the many services when my parish doesn’t have services, and I can’t afford the time and money to travel to distance to “my” OCA parish for multiple services during the week.

I so wish these parishes would just remove pews in one area and then make clear to people it’s fine to be either place, in a pew, or standing. Maybe a bad analogy but a bit like Communion in the hand in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite in the Latin Church. It is approved. Period. They can receive in the hand, or they can receive on the tongue and it’s nobody’s business to say one is better than the other.

 

[Peter_J]

… and it’s nobody’s business to say one is better than the other.

The thing is, I believe that’s just what many people are saying, particular among the pew-opposers.

 

[andrewstx]

How do people do prostrations in all of those churches full of pews? Or is that just an Orthodox and not Eastern Catholic practice?

I would go to an Eastern Catholic (preferably Ruthenian) parish if one were closer than 500 miles.

 

[Thomas48]

The Syro Malabar Church used to never have pews in the parishes, now a days pews are built in when the parish is erected. Even the older parishes that did not have pews have been equipped with either chairs or pews, there are only a few that remain without them. Sometimes though, there are open spaces left in between or in front of the pews, though this is usually only done because of the influx of the numbers of parishioners. In sign of respect the chairs/pews are always given to the elderly or handicap, everyone else is usually on the floor.

View attachment 17804 View attachment 17805 View attachment 17806

 

[MonkMoses]

A small correction, theistgal - you have been to Russian Greek-Catholic parish that has no pews, though it does have chairs.

I’m with 5Loaves on this. Along with the reasons she gave, forcing people to arrange themselves in neat rows they can’t easily move from changes the dynamics of our way of worship.

Interestingly, when my daughter was younger and somewhat difficult in church, she was generally better behaved in the pewless Russian parish than the Ruthenian parish we also frequented - I think, because she could see and hear better what was going on, and had more freedom to move around.

I believe theistgal was speaking about her visits to Holy Resurrection Monastery…a Romanian Greek Catholic Monastery…our church has no pews.

St Andrew’s Russian Greek Catholic Church has no pews, but does have chairs in some areas of the church for those who need them.