Pews, Kneeling, Sacred Imagery at a distance

[iohanne]

Hey. I hope these don’t seem like issues that are too silly but…

1. When did the Roman Catholic Chuch begin to install pews into their churches?
2. How did people kneel before there were pews? Just on the floor?
3. At what point did the Roman Catholic Church reverse the Nicene canon that banned kneeling on Sundays?
4. Do you find the statues and icons and sacred images in your local parishes to be “distanced” from the congregation? Either it’s too high up to touch or kiss or it’s placed in a little niche with a row of candles directly in front of it acting as a barrier…? Oddly enough, I find this more common in EF-oriented parishes than OF ones…

I only ask because I’ve been attending a Byzantine service lately and the Church is gorgeous and there are no pews. This makes it easier for the priest to do a quick incensing of the whole Church, its icons and the worshippers and going to the bathroom or stepping outside because of a crying baby is far less disruptive. Also, when there’s a procession with the Blessed Sacrament at an EF Mass, people just keep singing the hymns and staring forward at the empty tabernacle… At Byzantine services, when the priest incenses the Chuch or when the Gospel book or the gifts are being processed towards the altar, people are more free to walk around to get out of the way and to face the priest or the procession while turning on the spot. It is seriously the most awkward thing to be staring at an empty sanctuary when all the priests, deacons and servers are walking around the Church with the very Presence of Christ while we have our back to Him…

Secondly, I really enjoy the ascetic aspect of standing. At the EF Mass that I occasionally attend, the priest sits down right in the middle of the Gloria or the Creed for like a minute and then get’s right back up again. Seriously? You couldn’t just stand for that whole minute? We’re way past the days of gigantic polyphonic orchestras with 10 minute Kyries and 20 minute Glorias and Creeds. Maybe it made sense to sit down and put on your baretta then but now it’s just seems like needless nostalgia.

Lastly, venerating icons has become a very big part of my spirituality but I occasionally enjoy attending a Latin Mass at these two parishes nearby where all the icons and statues are either too high up or there’s a barrier of candles blocking even side-access to be able to touch or kiss or venerate the sacred images so normally I just light a candle and pray and then leave. There’s one painting of St. Vincent which is just low enough for me to touch so I usually do that when no one’s looking since it’s always awkward because I’m usually the only one doing it and I don’t want to seem like I’m showing off or trying to be overtly pious… but you’d think EF worshippers would be more down with that? In fact, it’s the exact opposite. The cathedral, which has very dignified and excellent OF services, is filled with statues and icons and the people have no qualms kissing their feets or just touching them with their eyes closed while praying. Then again, the cathedral has a much higher percentage of Latinos, Filipinos, Poles and Goans whereas the I think the EF-oriented parishes have a higher percentage of Germans, Irishmen and Koreans… is it a cultural thing? When I visit the Philippines, there’s so much more… “incarnational” spirituality going on with touching all the statues and kissing sacred paintings, etc.

I’m not proposing byzantinization upon the Latin Church or anything but it seems like the earlier traditions of no pews/kneelers and a robust “incarnational” spirituality and connection with sacred images seems to be a earlier Latin tradition which we’ve just lost… Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Rebukes? I’m all ears…

 

[YoungTradCath]

Hey. I hope these don’t seem like issues that are too silly but…

1. When did the Roman Catholic Chuch begin to install pews into their churches?
2. How did people kneel before there were pews? Just on the floor?
3. At what point did the Roman Catholic Church reverse the Nicene canon that banned kneeling on Sundays?
4. Do you find the statues and icons and sacred images in your local parishes to be “distanced” from the congregation? Either it’s too high up to touch or kiss or it’s placed in a little niche with a row of candles directly in front of it acting as a barrier…? Oddly enough, I find this more common in EF-oriented parishes than OF ones…

I only ask because I’ve been attending a Byzantine service lately and the Church is gorgeous and there are no pews. This makes it easier for the priest to do a quick incensing of the whole Church, its icons and the worshippers and going to the bathroom or stepping outside because of a crying baby is far less disruptive. Also, when there’s a procession with the Blessed Sacrament at an EF Mass, people just keep singing the hymns and staring forward at the empty tabernacle… At Byzantine services, when the priest incenses the Chuch or when the Gospel book or the gifts are being processed towards the altar, people are more free to walk around to get out of the way and to face the priest or the procession while turning on the spot. It is seriously the most awkward thing to be staring at an empty sanctuary when all the priests, deacons and servers are walking around the Church with the very Presence of Christ while we have our back to Him…

Secondly, I really enjoy the ascetic aspect of standing. At the EF Mass that I occasionally attend, the priest sits down right in the middle of the Gloria or the Creed for like a minute and then get’s right back up again. Seriously? You couldn’t just stand for that whole minute? We’re way past the days of gigantic polyphonic orchestras with 10 minute Kyries and 20 minute Glorias and Creeds. Maybe it made sense to sit down and put on your baretta then but now it’s just seems like needless nostalgia.

Lastly, venerating icons has become a very big part of my spirituality but I occasionally enjoy attending a Latin Mass at these two parishes nearby where all the icons and statues are either too high up or there’s a barrier of candles blocking even side-access to be able to touch or kiss or venerate the sacred images so normally I just light a candle and pray and then leave. There’s one painting of St. Vincent which is just low enough for me to touch so I usually do that when no one’s looking since it’s always awkward because I’m usually the only one doing it and I don’t want to seem like I’m showing off or trying to be overtly pious… but you’d think EF worshippers would be more down with that? In fact, it’s the exact opposite. The cathedral, which has very dignified and excellent OF services, is filled with statues and icons and the people have no qualms kissing their feets or just touching them with their eyes closed while praying. Then again, the cathedral has a much higher percentage of Latinos, Filipinos, Poles and Goans whereas the I think the EF-oriented parishes have a higher percentage of Germans, Irishmen and Koreans… is it a cultural thing? When I visit the Philippines, there’s so much more… “incarnational” spirituality going on with touching all the statues and kissing sacred paintings, etc.

I’m not proposing byzantinization upon the Latin Church or anything but it seems like the earlier traditions of no pews/kneelers and a robust “incarnational” spirituality and connection with sacred images seems to be a earlier Latin tradition which we’ve just lost… Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Rebukes? I’m all ears…

1. Relatively recently (last 500ish years).
2. They got on the floor. God forbid!!!
3. No idea.
4. Nope.

No, we’re not way past the days of gigantic polyphonic orchestras, and I hope we never will be. There are many churches that still occasionally (Easter, Christmas) do masses like this. I think it improbable that a priest, even with only a short musical Kyrie or Gloria, sits not out of nostalgia but perhaps because he just wants to. I hardly think a fleck of nostalgia is involved. We’re getting to the point now where most of the priests who celebrate the Tridentine Mass are born after (or just at the end of) VII, and so I can hardly call that nostalgia.

It is a cultural thing.

 

[Rose_Maniple]

It is a cultural thing - but it’s also a result of the mediæval abuse (regrettably perpetuated in the extraordinary form as authorized in the Roman Rite at present) of laying the Low Mass back onto the High Mass. The Low Mass, with all roles taken by a single presiding priest, was a concession for when the High Mass (exemplified by the First Roman Order with its variety of liturgical ministries) was not feasible. But when the High Mass *is *feasible, there is no reason other than a creeping kind of clericalism to have the priest repeat everyone else’s parts sotto voce. Because the congregation is an extension of the choir rather than the priest, I never sit during the Gloria, regardless of use or rite.

 

[nickybr38]

Hey. I hope these don’t seem like issues that are too silly but…

1. When did the Roman Catholic Chuch begin to install pews into their churches?
2. How did people kneel before there were pews? Just on the floor?
3. At what point did the Roman Catholic Church reverse the Nicene canon that banned kneeling on Sundays?
4. Do you find the statues and icons and sacred images in your local parishes to be “distanced” from the congregation? Either it’s too high up to touch or kiss or it’s placed in a little niche with a row of candles directly in front of it acting as a barrier…? Oddly enough, I find this more common in EF-oriented parishes than OF ones…

1. No idea.
2. I don’t believe people have always kneeled so before there were pews I would imagine they stood.
3. There was such a canon? Interesting.
4. The statues, icons and sacred images in my parish are all easily accessible.

 

[I_Thirst]

Secondly, I really enjoy the ascetic aspect of standing.

I’ve recently read that the Greek word for “resurrection” is anastasis, which also means (or is related to the Greek) “standing up.” One of the things I’ve heard about the Byzantine approach is that it emphasizes the Risen Christ in the Divine Liturgy.

 

[1ke]

Pews were born out of the Protestant Reformation, and came out of the fact that their liturgies focused on lengthy, extended preaching/sermons.

Also, in the beginning people had to buy their pews or pay a yearly pew fee for their pew. And, there were strict segregation according to social classes, at least in England.

 

[iohanne]

1. Relatively recently (last 500ish years).
2. They got on the floor. God forbid!!!

Thanks for the responses. Do you know when exactly the pews were initiated… as in, are you aware of historical documents or decrees from the See or from bishops that had implemented them locally or anything like that? Additionally, I’d like to clarify that I have no qualms about kneeling on the floor. When I attend an OF-oriented parish with my parents, the pews on a Sunday are usually full 20 minutes before the Mass itself so we and many others often have to stand and kneel on the floor during the relevant moments. I was simply enquiring as to whether this was the general practice of all Catholics prior to the implementation of pews and kneelers.

No, we’re not way past the days of gigantic polyphonic orchestras, and I hope we never will be. There are many churches that still occasionally (Easter, Christmas) do masses like this.

I was not aware that there were Masses still celebrated like this. Where has this happened? I’m personally not very fond of these kinds of Masses. It could stem from my ignorance and inability to appreciate classical music. Although there has been many historical precedents of orchestral and symphonic Masses from the Rennaissance upwards, I think the current liturgical movement within our Church should focus on Gregorian plain chant which we’ve all recognised has primacy as the traditional musical setting of our liturgies. I think it is more “catholic” in the sense of “universal” because although it is western in origin, it is far enough removed in time that it’s beauty can be appreciated detached from any specific cultural background. I do not think the same can be said of classical, baroque and romantic Mass settings. I am not a westerner - both with respect to my ethnicity and with respect to the urban culture that I have inherited - so I do not consider myself an heir to Mozart masses. But because I am a cradle Catholic and raised in a family that has been cradle Catholic for as long as my country has been colonised by Spain, I consider myself an heir to the Gregorian patrimony of the Latin Church.

Additionally, the beauty of these genres is opaque to the uninitiated - myself included - particularly because of their dazzling complexity; it’s mostly only people who, by virtue of extensive training, can attempt to play similar music that can appreciate the difficulty and skill and talent and who can sense the transcendent Beauty which shines through the music. I cannot. It’s simply overwhelming noise. I do not think Gregorian chant experiences this same inaccessibility. It’s melodies are beautiful and transcendent yet to the uninitiated, it can be learned viva voce which is enough to give them an appreciation of the a capella choir whose voices would be thundering above theirs and would be leading the chant.

Finally, Gregorian chant is in keeping with the ancient Roman Christian heritage of sobriety, terseness and conciseness in both prayer, poetry and music whereas these kinds of Masses constitute a departure from that liturgical tradition. By “we are long past the days,” I did not mean to belittle these styles of Mass - I was simply indicating that the vast majority of Catholics have not experienced a Tridentine Latin Mass and an even smaller minority of those that have probably have not experienced an orchestral or symphonic Mass.

I think it improbable that a priest… and so I can hardly call that nostalgia.

On the contrary, I do not think it is a personal decision. There are many priests in my city that perform the EF and every single one sits down during the Gloria with their biretta on. Secondly, I think it is possible to feel nostalgia for a world you’ve never known. Ask any Peruvian who has visited Machu Pichu or any Filipino who has beheld the Banaue rice terraces or any Christian Copt who has seen the ancient Egyptian temples and pyramids. I think that every single priest who performs the EF sits because this is what was commonly practised during the era when orchestral and symphonic Masses were much more the norm than they were today and I think this practice crystallized as normative among those of us who wish to revive the traditional Latin Mass. I highly doubt that sitting during a 3 minute Gloria or 7 minute Credo was the norm in those parishes that depended on the Gregorian settings for lack of resources. So perhaps I was incorrect in using a word such as “nostalgia” which may have negative connotations… perhaps “vestigial” would be more correct?

In agreement with Rose Maniple, I also think it inappropriate and against the spirit of the liturgy to be sitting during the Gloria or the Credo. We stand to incarnate respect, we kneel to incarnate humility and unworthiness and we sit to be catechised. So unless the Gloria or the Credo were being performed by an orchestra or a symphony at Easter or at Christmas which you say occasionally occurs somewhere in the world, I think it is inappropriate to be singing the praises of the Most Holy Trinity, “You alone are Holy, You alone are the Most High, You alone are Lord, receive our prayer, have mercy on us, etc.” and be sitting. I think it is also against the spirit of the liturgy to be reciting the august and heresy-destroying words hammered out by the 318 Fathers at the Council of Nicaea… while sitting.

It is a cultural thing.

Thank you. At the EF liturgies which you attend, is veneration of sacred images more common since you mention that there is no “distance” between the congregation and the iconography at your parishes? What are the represented cultures and ethnicities at these parishes, if I may ask?

 

[iohanne]

Thank you for all your responses!

1. 1. There was such a canon? Interesting.
2. The statues, icons and sacred images in my parish are all easily accessible.

Yes, it is part of the twentieth canon of Nicaea:

“FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the Holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.”

In addition, Tertullian says,

*“We consider it unlawful to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord’s day; we enjoy the same liberty from Easter-day to that of Pentecost.” *De Cor. Mil. s. 3, 4.

May I ask if veneration of sacred images is common in your parish?

I’ve recently read that the Greek word for “resurrection” is anastasis, which also means (or is related to the Greek) “standing up.” One of the things I’ve heard about the Byzantine approach is that it emphasizes the Risen Christ in the Divine Liturgy.

Yes I think Augustine even notes this as well, and he is a western Father.

Pews were born out of the Protestant Reformation, and came out of the fact that their liturgies focused on lengthy, extended preaching/sermons.

Also, in the beginning people had to buy their pews or pay a yearly pew fee for their pew. And, there were strict segregation according to social classes, at least in England.

This makes me lament pews even more. Was this pew fee a practice on both sides of the Reformation?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ve recently read that the Greek word for “resurrection” is anastasis, which also means (or is related to the Greek) “standing up.” One of the things I’ve heard about the Byzantine approach is that it emphasizes the Risen Christ in the Divine Liturgy.

Yes, standing is the posture of the resurrection and Sunday being the day of the resurrection, we stand so that we may be risen as Christ has risen.

 

[YoungTradCath]

T Do you know when exactly the pews were initiated

Pews were probably an adaptation from Protestant church services. Protestant services have historically been composed mostly of a long sermon. If you attend a Baptist church today, you will sing a few songs, read a few Bible verses, and the preacher will talk about those readings for probably 45 minutes of the hour or so that the service lasts, and you will be sitting for most of it.

I was not aware that there were Masses still celebrated like this. I’m personally not very fond of these kinds of Masses.

Additionally, the beauty of these genres is opaque to the uninitiated - myself included - particularly because of their dazzling complexity; it’s mostly only people who, by virtue of extensive training, can attempt to play similar music that can appreciate the difficulty and skill and talent and who can sense the transcendent Beauty which shines through the music. I cannot. It’s simply overwhelming noise.

Finally, Gregorian chant is in keeping with the ancient Roman Christian heritage of sobriety, terseness and conciseness in both prayer, poetry and music whereas these kinds of Masses constitute a departure from that liturgical tradition.

Polyphonic mass settings are used both in the EF and the OF. They are not limited to the EF, since the texts for the Ordinary of Mass are exactly the same in both Forms, but I will concede that it is probably more common to hear a polyphonic setting in the EF, since the parishes that offer it are usually of a particular liturgical disposition (read: traditional). Just this past Christmas, I know for a fact that polyphonic masses were offered at St. Agnes and Holy Innocents in NYC, as well as at Assumption Grotto in Detroit. In fact, the setting used at Assumption Grotto was written by the pastor himself specifically for that occasion! Polyphonic settings are still being written, and they most certainly are still being performed. The next time an episcopal ordination or installation is broadcast on EWTN (which you can watch on their website), catch it. When Apb. Dolan was installed a few years ago in NY, the music was absolutely glorious polyphony. Just this last September, when Apb. Chaput was installed in Philly, they used polyphony (albeit with some lame music as well). I love polyphony, but I can see how non-Western people perhaps aren’t partial to it.

Gregorian Chant is, as you say, the music best suited to the Roman Rite. I will not deny that; in fact, I embrace it. I think that the wholesale murder of Gregorian Chant is almost unforgivable. We need to restore it, and steps are being taken to do so. For example, Google “Simple English Propers.” However, I do think that polyphony is as close to appropriateness that you can get without using Gregorian Chant. Polyphony is steeped in Catholic tradition. Palestrina? Uh, yes! Watch a Papal Mass online sometime. I believe the next one is February 21 or so. They do an excellent blending of polyphony and chant.

In agreement with Rose Maniple, I also think it inappropriate and against the spirit of the liturgy to be sitting during the Gloria or the Credo. We stand to incarnate respect, we kneel to incarnate humility and unworthiness and we sit to be catechised. So unless the Gloria or the Credo were being performed by an orchestra or a symphony at Easter or at Christmas you say occasionally occurs somewhere in the world, I think it is inappropriate to be singing the praises of the Most Holy Trinity, “You alone are Holy, You alone are the Most High, You alone are Lord, receive our prayer, have mercy on us, etc.” and be sitting. I think it is also against the spirit of the liturgy to be reciting the august and heresy-destroying words hammered out by the 318 Fathers at the Council of Nicaea… while sitting.

No priest ever sits during a Gloria or Credo at Low Mass, simply because they are not sung. At High Mass, yes, it is usually done, as these pieces are sung. However, I don’t think it’s a particularly huge deal if it happens. I don’t think orchestral masses were ever the norm. Even before VII, I hardly think they were the norm at high masses, as most churches could no more afford to pay an orchestra to come in every Sunday than they can now. You can have an extremely long Gloria or Credo, even if it is only in chant.

Thank you. At the EF liturgies which you attend, is veneration of sacred images more common since you mention that there is no “distance” between the congregation and the iconography at your parishes? What are the represented cultures and ethnicities at these parishes, if I may ask?

There is lateral distance, but there is no vertical distance. These icons, relics, etc. are all near ground level but they are encased in the altars and near them, so it would be highly inappropriate to go kiss them during mass. At the EF masses, it’s mostly Caucasians and Asians (generally Filipinos). There are few Africans, but there are few Africans in the OF masses to begin with.

 

[iohanne]

Just this past Christmas, I know for a fact that polyphonic masses were offered at St. Agnes and Holy Innocents in NYC, as well as at Assumption Grotto in Detroit. In fact, the setting used at Assumption Grotto was written by the pastor himself specifically for that occasion! Polyphonic settings are still being written, and they most certainly are still being performed. The next time an episcopal ordination or installation is broadcast on EWTN (which you can watch on their website), catch it. When Apb. Dolan was installed a few years ago in NY, the music was absolutely glorious polyphony. Just this last September, when Apb. Chaput was installed in Philly, they used polyphony (albeit with some lame music as well). I love polyphony, but I can see how non-Western people perhaps aren’t partial to it.

I’ll definitely try and catch one… Maybe one day I’ll be able to experience a polyphonic mass at St. Agnes and Holy Innocents or at the Assumption Grotto!

No priest ever sits during a Gloria or Credo at Low Mass, simply because they are not sung.

Perhaps Rose Maniple meant Missa Cantata by Low Mass rather than what you or I would normally think of which is probably the Missa Lect?

However, I do think that polyphony is as close to appropriateness that you can get without using Gregorian Chant. Polyphony is steeped in Catholic tradition. Palestrina? Uh, yes! Watch a Papal Mass online sometime. I believe the next one is February 21 or so. They do an excellent blending of polyphony and chant.

Fascinating, I didn’t know that! I will definitely check that one out too.

here is lateral distance, but there is no vertical distance. These icons, relics, etc. are all near ground level but they are encased in the altars and near them, so it would be highly inappropriate to go kiss them during mass. At the EF masses, it’s mostly Caucasians and Asians (generally Filipinos). There are few Africans, but there are few Africans in the OF masses to begin with.

Interesting, thanks! =)

 

[I_Thirst]

Palestrina? Uh, yes!

I’ve seen many at CAF wish for a Catholic Bach. They fail to realize that Bach was the Lutheran Palestrina.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I’ve seen many at CAF wish for a Catholic Bach. They fail to realize that Bach was the Lutheran Palestrina.

Lololol shows how musically advanced we Catholics are.

 

[nickybr38]

Thank you for all your responses!

Yes, it is part of the twentieth canon of Nicaea:

May I ask if veneration of sacred images is common in your parish?

Honestly? I haven’t seen any veneration at all. When I was confirmed I insisted of having my picture taken with the statue of Mother and everyone was kind of like why? Haha. It was funny.

 

[babochka]

I am a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic in a church with pews. TLocally, the Russian Orthodox Church does not have pews, nor the OCA church. The Ukrainian Catholics, Melkites, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Chaldean Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Coptic Orthodox all have pews. Our priest is from Slovakia, and he says that the Greek-Catholic and Orthodox Churches there have pews as well, for the most part. I guess the Protestant Reformation has affected them as well, although they might think of it as a Latinization. I’m part of a small group in our parish who would be happy to see the pews go. When I was a kid, I can remember that the pews were removed from the church from Easter to Pentecost. Even though we have pews, there is much more movement during the Liturgy. As the priest incenses the church, we all turn to “follow” him. During the pre-sanctified Liturgy, with its prostrations, we usually come out into the aisles. It would work better without pews, but pews do not necessarily make us static. I have young children, and I’m often out of the pew, wandering around the church, carrying a fussy baby or following a toddler. . I would never feel free to do that at Mass in a Latin Rite church. The icons on the wall are hung at slightly above my shoulder height, so they are of great interest to the babies being carried, and easily reached for veneration.

Our local Latin Rite Cathedral has some beautiful artwork. At the official Cathedral tour, visitors are told that they are placed low and are meant for touching a kissing. I loved that!

 

[Rose_Maniple]

Perhaps Rose Maniple meant Missa Cantata by Low Mass rather than what you or I would normally think of which is probably the Missa Lect?

No, I meant the Low Mass. Having the priest read the Gloria is a feature of the Low Mass. At High Mass it, along with the other movements of the ordinary, would have been sung by the choir: redoubling the “lecta” recitation under the High Mass is a later mediaeval development, and implies that the prayer doesn’t “count” until it’s repeated by the priest. It’s basically the obverse of the abuse of lay echoing of the Canon or its final doxology. The problem of celebrants seating themselves in the middle of the Gloria only arises if they’re rushing ahead with it privately instead of singing it reverently with everyone else. The latter is the practice in Orthodox and Anglican churches following the ceremonial of the classical Roman Rite.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not proposing byzantinization upon the Latin Church or anything

Sure about that?

 

[TrueLight]

Also, when there’s a procession with the Blessed Sacrament at an EF Mass, people just keep singing the hymns and staring forward at the empty tabernacle…

We normally process after the priest and servers. A.

Secondly, I really enjoy the ascetic aspect of standing. At the EF Mass that I occasionally attend, the priest sits down right in the middle of the Gloria or the Creed for like a minute and then get’s right back up again. Seriously?

On a related note, what I can’t stand is when the congregation sits after being incensed during the prayers that come before the preface. Sometimes, depending on how fast the priest is reading, we might have 20 seconds in between the congregation sitting down and then getting up again.

Depending on my mood, I stay standing even if I’m standing by myself.

 

[iohanne]

Sure about that?

Byzantinization implies an introduction of a foreign element into our rites and praxis - like the introduction of an explicit epiclesis in the OF and some of its new eucharistic prayers. I’m just suggesting that maybe we return to our own older Latin customs.

On a related note, what I can’t stand is when the congregation sits after being incensed during the prayers that come before the preface. Sometimes, depending on how fast the priest is reading, we might have 20 seconds in between the congregation sitting down and then getting up again.

Depending on my mood, I stay standing even if I’m standing by myself.

Good point. This is another thing to consider.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Byzantinization implies an introduction of a foreign element into our rites and praxis - like the introduction of an explicit epiclesis in the OF and some of its new eucharistic prayers. I’m just suggesting that maybe we return to our own older Latin customs.

I would love that, like only having the Roman Canon, as is our tradition.