Pews, Kneeling, Sacred Imagery at a distance

[Monica4316]

I can’t say anything about when kneeling was introduced, etc… I think in the East, no kneeling is allowed on Sunday, but in the West it’s allowed, because the meaning of it is different. In the East it’s seen as penance, but in the West, reverence.

I’ve been to a Latin Mass parish (FSSP) with statues that people can approach… the only exception were the statues on the side altars, and the main altar. But there were other statues around the church, like the Sacred Heart of Jesus statue, or I think St Anthony, which people could approach or touch if they wanted. At a couple cathedrals I’ve been to, there was a large crucifix that I’ve seen people venerate. i think mostly though, - the tradition of venerating images by touching or kissing them, is more Eastern (it might also be cultural as you said). The Western practice seems to be kneeling, of course we don’t kneel TO the image, but to God, while we pray with the image being a visual reminder. We also light candles, which represent our prayers - and this is also a practice in the East. One thing I love about the Latin rite is Adoration, and how we can kneel before the Blessed Sacrament. I think both East and West offer something different and special in their spiritualities.

When you say that you’ve been attending a Byzantine parish, I assume an Eastern Catholic parish, not an Eastern Orthodox one? the Orthodox ones are not in union with Rome, but the Catholic ones are and we’re allowed to receive Communion there, as in any Catholic parish. (you probably know this but just in case). There’s nothing wrong with visiting it or intergrating Byzantine spirituality, - if you are drawn to the Eastern rites and the icons, the liturgy, etc, - that’s totally fine. I love both the Latin Mass and the Byzantine rite.

God bless!

 

[iohanne]

I can’t say anything about when kneeling was introduced, etc… I think in the East, no kneeling is allowed on Sunday, but in the West it’s allowed, because the meaning of it is different. In the East it’s seen as penance, but in the West, reverence.

I was under the impression that even in the West, kneeling was a sign of penance or unworthiness. After all, the one-liner which I quoted from Tertullian earlier on in this thread indicates that the prohibition against standing on Sundays was observed universally (ie. throughout the orthodox Catholic Church)… and Tertullian was a Westerner. If kneeling is reverential, wouldn’t we also kneel during the Gospel? During the Creed? Why do Westerners stand when a dignitary enters the room, rather than kneel? Why do we kneel in the confessional?

I was taught that we stand to show respect, we kneel to show our unworthiness and we sit to be catechised.

When you say that you’ve been attending a Byzantine parish, I assume an Eastern Catholic parish, not an Eastern Orthodox one? the Orthodox ones are not in union with Rome, but the Catholic ones are and we’re allowed to receive Communion there, as in any Catholic parish. (you probably know this but just in case). There’s nothing wrong with visiting it or intergrating Byzantine spirituality, - if you are drawn to the Eastern rites and the icons, the liturgy, etc, - that’s totally fine. I love both the Latin Mass and the Byzantine rite. God bless!

I have worshiped in Eastern Catholic parishes, yes, but lately I have primarily been visiting a canonical Russian Orthodox parish (ROCOR) particularly because the Eastern Catholic parishes around my area do not have as full a liturgical schedule and I really enjoy the fuller rounds of orthros and hesperinos services and even vigils and akathists which they offer. I am well aware that we are not in communion with them and I respect that and do not take communion. As it is, I rarely ever take communion anyways, even in a Roman Catholic parish. I’m not so big on indiscriminately presenting one’s self to receive if one has not properly fasted and spiritually prepared for it. Some years I do the minimum requirement of once a year during the Paschal season but most years I manage to commune once every three months or so.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was under the impression that even in the West, kneeling was a sign of penance or unworthiness. After all, the one-liner which I quoted from Tertullian earlier on in this thread indicates that the prohibition against standing on Sundays was observed universally (ie. throughout the orthodox Catholic Church)… and Tertullian was a Westerner. If kneeling is reverential, wouldn’t we also kneel during the Gospel? During the Creed? Why do Westerners stand when a dignitary enters the room, rather than kneel? Why do we kneel in the confessional?

The prohibition on kneeling on Sundays was indeed supposed to be universal because its one of the canons of the First Ecumenical Council.

I was taught that we stand to show respect, we kneel to show our unworthiness and we sit to be catechised.

Standing is a sign of respect, but also in Eastern praxis standing is the posture of the resurrection and thus we stand especially on Sundays because Sunday is the day of the resurrection, and we look to be resurrected as Christ has resurrected.

 

[Rich_C]

Yes, standing is the posture of the resurrection and Sunday being the day of the resurrection, we stand so that we may be risen as Christ has risen.

Moreover, kneeling was/is a penitential posture and fasting and penances were/are disallowed on the Lord’s Day.

Somewhere along the line, excepts were made. Even today, I’ve read that in the ordinary form Americans are permitted by indult to kneel in places the rubrics call for standing, but I got that secondhand.

 

[Celticnovice]

To the subject of kneeling, there was a thread on this a few years ago in the Eastern Catholic forum, in which both Orthodox and Catholic posters contributed

You can check it out here

 

[Celticnovice]

1. Everything I have seen has told me it happened during the reformation, though I know in certain Spanish/Portuguese areas pews came even later.
2. They got on the floor
3. See my above post and hopefully someone can further explain/answer this point
4. Most of the churches I have attend have scared images close to the congregation for veneration, but I have definitely seen the opposite where the they are too high.

 

[LilHomemaker]

I just watched a video on the Latin Mass and the priest mentioned that pews were part of the reformation. I didn’t know that. That caused me to search and find this thread.

I don’t attend a Byzantine parish but as far as icons and statues in the Latin rite, I think that at some parishes the statues are too distant to get near enough to touch and pray. That is actually kind of sad because statues and praying to the saints is part of our Catholic tradition.

During the week I attend a different parish due to schedules and this parish actually has around the church statues of various saints. There are prayer cards and candles at each spot. At first attending there I would just pray and light my candle and then I noticed some would stand and touch the statues and close their eyes and pray. I thought that was a good idea so I have been doing that also. I do think you are right it is a cultural thing as the ones I noticed doing that were easterners or Filipino. I guess some might think it looks like I am worshiping the statue or the saint but that is not so. It is a reminder of who you are praying to.

I hope you find a parish in communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

Pews are kind of a new thing. Maybe since the Reformation.

I’ve heard it said that it is an accretion from those who broke away during that time. I have read in architectural type-thing that Catholic churches in the west began to take them up in the 17-th century.

I have seen churches where pillows and chairs, and people on the floor abound. It’s actually quite edifying to see. If you look at the Sistine Chapel there aren’t pews there. (I think anyway last time I saw it) There also aren’t pews in the the other chapel in France (that is a essentially a twin to the Sistine Chapel)

 

[iohanne]

Thank you all for your responses!

@ JimmyButcher : Do you happen to know where in Europe these parishes would be - the parishes without pews? Suffice to say that people should never elect me as Pope because I’d be a huge pew-o-clast and I’d also rip out artificial lighting. There’s nothing more annoying than the buzz of lights during the consecration. It’s either natural sunlight or during evening and midnight services, candle light.