R
rcwitness
Guest
Great post. I tried to address this earlier. I’m not sure it will resonate…
- Status
Great post. I tried to address this earlier. I’m not sure it will resonate…
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
So why does God’s church have rules then? And why should we follow them?
A
Abu
Guest
What a jaundiced view of Christ and His Church! No Real Catholic accepts such a travesty of truth.
Listen to Christ Himself as He established His Church on St Peter.
**Jesus explicitly made four promises to Peter alone: **
"You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church." (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." (Mt 16:19)
**“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” **(Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].
**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
Jesus, having given His authority to St Peter, confirmed: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).
"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, **teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” **(Mt 28: 18-20).
Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).
Thus we see that Jesus very specifically formed His Church, and no other, on Peter the leader of the twelve Apostles. Further, the Sacred Scriptures emphasise:
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!
M
Minion_w_a_drum
Guest
After reading this thread, and many others, I’ve pretty much decided the catholic church is not for me.
Not because of the rules and regulations, I’ve navigated the obstacle course of rules and regs my entire life. It’s because it all seems so hollow.
Obtaining peace by eating pizza on Friday knowing God allows you to pick off the pepperoni first.
Obtaining peace because I wash my hands before I touch something dirty after blessing myself w holy water.
Obtaining peace because I always go to confession after eating girl scout cookies.
Obtaining peace because the ecumenical council of 1442 said it is okay for me to eat boudin… (which, in my opinion is probably a staple food in heaven…)
To be clear, I believe in rules and regulations. I just don’t believe they are the end all, be all. I believe they are meant to be a guide line. But they are not enough. It is not enough to obey rules and to find the most obscure, isolated example to follow in an attempt to put that piece of obedience on the plus side of your ledger.
I stated yesterday that Jesus admonished the Pharisees for getting hung up on rules and regulations. Someone corrected me and said Jesus admonished them for being legalists (what the difference is, I will never know).
And then I followed that by saying who but the church encourages this obsession on rules and regulations (oops, I meant legalism)?
I know we all live in different parts of the country and I know we are of different ages, social status, education levels ETC. But there is no doubt that where I grew up and where I was educated it was “okay” for catholics to go to the local 4 star restaurant on Fridays and have jumbo shrimp. Where I grew up, nitpicking through the rule books was touted as the way to lead a Christian life. All of this came from priests and monks of a local monastery… They were, after all, following the rules.
After 50 years of being a catholic here is my opinion. Here is what I’ve concluded.
Jesus set up the perfect church after his death and resurrection. Then he turned it over to humans.
And while he promised those humans he would not abandon them, and while he promised he would guide them, and while he undoubtedly flooded them with many graces with which to run his church, the fact still remains- his church is run by humans. His church is run by sinners. (the level of sin can be debated, but certainly not the fact that all humans are sinners.)
And through the ages, at least in some parts of the world, some in charge of his church at some point in time decided that if you scare people enough they will follow the rules. And thus keep coming back every Sunday. For some, it probably seemed easier to turn this faith in God thing into something black and white. More people would keep coming every Sunday if it was more black and white. If the example of living a Christ like life was written down as a punch list, people would flock to your church and would remain.
It all just seems extremely hollow to me.
If this is how to obtain peace, I think I’ll seek peace elsewhere.
Godspeed, everyone.
Not because of the rules and regulations, I’ve navigated the obstacle course of rules and regs my entire life. It’s because it all seems so hollow.
Obtaining peace by eating pizza on Friday knowing God allows you to pick off the pepperoni first.
Obtaining peace because I wash my hands before I touch something dirty after blessing myself w holy water.
Obtaining peace because I always go to confession after eating girl scout cookies.
Obtaining peace because the ecumenical council of 1442 said it is okay for me to eat boudin… (which, in my opinion is probably a staple food in heaven…)
To be clear, I believe in rules and regulations. I just don’t believe they are the end all, be all. I believe they are meant to be a guide line. But they are not enough. It is not enough to obey rules and to find the most obscure, isolated example to follow in an attempt to put that piece of obedience on the plus side of your ledger.
I stated yesterday that Jesus admonished the Pharisees for getting hung up on rules and regulations. Someone corrected me and said Jesus admonished them for being legalists (what the difference is, I will never know).
And then I followed that by saying who but the church encourages this obsession on rules and regulations (oops, I meant legalism)?
I know we all live in different parts of the country and I know we are of different ages, social status, education levels ETC. But there is no doubt that where I grew up and where I was educated it was “okay” for catholics to go to the local 4 star restaurant on Fridays and have jumbo shrimp. Where I grew up, nitpicking through the rule books was touted as the way to lead a Christian life. All of this came from priests and monks of a local monastery… They were, after all, following the rules.
After 50 years of being a catholic here is my opinion. Here is what I’ve concluded.
Jesus set up the perfect church after his death and resurrection. Then he turned it over to humans.
And while he promised those humans he would not abandon them, and while he promised he would guide them, and while he undoubtedly flooded them with many graces with which to run his church, the fact still remains- his church is run by humans. His church is run by sinners. (the level of sin can be debated, but certainly not the fact that all humans are sinners.)
And through the ages, at least in some parts of the world, some in charge of his church at some point in time decided that if you scare people enough they will follow the rules. And thus keep coming back every Sunday. For some, it probably seemed easier to turn this faith in God thing into something black and white. More people would keep coming every Sunday if it was more black and white. If the example of living a Christ like life was written down as a punch list, people would flock to your church and would remain.
It all just seems extremely hollow to me.
If this is how to obtain peace, I think I’ll seek peace elsewhere.
Godspeed, everyone.
W
Wesrock
Guest
Many Pharisees had becone hypocrites who lost sight if the Law’s purpose. For example, they were expected to care for their parents. However, money they gave to the Temple were exempt. So, many Pharisees would stocjpile their money in the Temple funds to avoid having to support their parents with their own money.
However, also recall that Jesus told the people to listen to the Pharisees in what they said because they sat on the seat of Moses, he just cautioned them away from following them in their hypocrisy in what they actually did.
However, also recall that Jesus told the people to listen to the Pharisees in what they said because they sat on the seat of Moses, he just cautioned them away from following them in their hypocrisy in what they actually did.
R
rcwitness
Guest
You seem to judge that because people can and do abuse disciplines and fastings, that the Church is wrong to practice them.
I can agree that it may be counterproductive to fast meat and eat all you can eat fish. But the Church is not rewarding anyone. God judges who’s prayers, fasting and works are done in faith.
G
GEddie
Guest
That’s just it. Our LORD never exempted anybody from Pharisaic regulations per se. He was not “anti rules”.
Indeed, he told them that they should practice the “weightier matters of the law” "without neglecting the others."
ICXC NIKA
L
Lucretius
Guest
The law is a means to an end. To Christ, the law is a means to glorify God. To some Pharisees, the law is a means to glorify themselves. This is the difference, as I understand it. Does that make sense?
The Saints have always spoken out against the “five star Lobster tails on Good Friday” mindset that you have described. I think you are around too many cultural Catholics (and careless priests/monks), who follow the rules purely out of convention. Instead of condemning them, we should try to teach them why we fast on Fridays (or at all).
The Saints are quite clear that one cannot be saved without developing an interior life in communion of God. People can do good actions, but with the wrong heart. “First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.” Holiness is having a righteous heart, that can externally do good works or not, depending on the situation (the Good Thief was made holy, and if it were possible, he would have gone and did good works of the Gospel, but couldn’t because of his situation). You are correct that simply following the rules out of apathy or mere convention is hollow.
Like most critiques of the Church, it is completely correct in attacking that which it is attacking, but doesn’t realize that it isn’t attacking Church teaching, but actually agreeing with it. I could see St. Francis de Sales giving a homily trying to awaken his congregation from the same problem. I think you should develop the fire of the Gospel in your heart, and help ignite others as a result, instead of becoming sad over others faults.
If you’re still interested, I would read some of the Catholic responses to arguments about salvation, faith, and works, since your critique sounds a lot like the strawman Protestant attack Catholics with regarding these sort of things. I also recommend St. Francis de Sales’ Introduction to the Devout Life, which explains what I’m trying to far better than I can.
catholicity.com/devoutlife/1-01.html
Christi pax,
Lucretius
- Status