Pharisees & Rubrics

[netmilsmom]

mosher:

Or is it that the more traditional groups are wounded because they have been given deaf ears to their concerns by much clergy or is it a mixture of this and more?

You have hit the nail on the head.
As one lady stated to me, “If you are homosexual, we have a ministry for you.
If you cheated on your spouse, we have a ministry for you.
If you have a gambling, drinking, drug (etc) problem, we have a ministry for you.
BUT if you want to have a little Latin in your Holy Mass or want to start a public Rosary before a Holy Mass, you have a problem. Get with the times.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

severinus:

Rubrics are the Church’s way of ensuring that the faithful are receiving what they have a right to receive: a valid and licit Mass.

Those who cry, “Pharisee!” whenever someone dares to mention that there are Church documents which prescribe how a Mass should be celebrated have no real defense, and must fall back on name-calling. Such people seem to view the GIRM as suggestions made by old men who don’t really understand what the Mass is supposed to be: whatever you want it to be.

I’m glad there are a few “Pharisees” out there with enough guts to stand up to the Father Feelgoods and their All-Singin’, All-Dancin’ DIY Eucharistic Jamborees. When it comes to rubrics, I’ll take a Pharisee any day of the week over a Twinkie-and-apple juice “Mass” featuring a homily by the eighth grade spelling bee champ.

’

I don’t think adherence to or a desire for adherence to GIRM is being a pharisee. I think using it to monitor a Mass in much the same way a vulture monitors a dying rabbit for when it’s safe to swoop in is being a pharisee. I think using it to beat up on someone for an honest mistake is being a pharisee.

There are obviously abuses (but where are they using twinkies and apple juice to attempt to confect the Sacrifice?) that have to be addressed, but I think lots of times people use GIRM or the Bible or Tradition to whomp the almighty spit out of people. That’s being a Pharisee. To constantly monitor what others are wearing to Mass is being a pharisee. To notice that someone is wearing a string bikini to Mass? Not so much being a pharisee. To berate a priest for failing to light a certain number of candles at Mass? Pharisee. Asking him why, in contravention of Church practice, he NEVER lights candles for Mass? Not being a pharisee.

I think we ourselves know when we’re being pharisees and when we’re not, if we are truly trying to “put on Christ.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Iohannes:

Have you guys not given the thought of those people who deliberately violate the rubrics think that they are better or above the Church, authority and Missal?

Very true! Each and every one of us should remember this and not set ourselves against the accumulated wisdom of the Church. The rubrics are there to insure good order and orthodoxy.

 

[TJD]

Originally posted by Robertaf

TJD,
I am not trying to be a smart aleck but how do you know this?
I have been a Catholic for a long time and no one has ever told me this.
This may be possible if the Priest is not a valid one.
Is there something I can read that says that?

Sorry, I got no direct reference for you with regard to my conclusion that if the Liturgy is abused too much then Christ may not be present in the Eucharist. I’ll try to explain my point non-the-less.

The Eucharist is the summit of the Liturgy. Everything supports the Eucharistic Prayer. Divine involvement is Critical. The Father will send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will offer Christ to the faithful for their salvation and Spiritual strength. Christ will come. The Church is also central to the Sacramental Grace offered to us.

CCC 1091 “In the liturgy the Holy Spirit is teacher of the faith of the People of God and artisan of “God’s masterpieces,” the sacraments of the New Covenant. The desire and work of the Spirit in the heart of the Church is that we may live from the life of the risen Christ. When the Spirit encounters in us the response of faith which he has aroused in us, he brings about genuine cooperation. Through it, the liturgy becomes the common work of the Holy Spirit and the Church.”

CCC 1092 “In this sacramental dispensation of Christ’s mystery the Holy Spirit acts in the same way as at other times in the economy of salvation: he prepares the Church to encounter her Lord; he recalls and makes Christ manifest to the faith of the assembly. By his transforming power, he makes the mystery of Christ present here and now. Finally the Spirit of communion unites the Church to the life and mission of Christ.”

The Holy Spirit and the Church are intertwined in bringing Christ to Earth in the Eucharist. I do not know what happens when the Spirit fails to encounter in us the response of faith which he has aroused in us. I don’t pretend to know what the Holy Spirit is looking for to bring about genuine cooperation so the liturgy becomes the common work of the Holy Spirit and the Church. I have hope that the Church leads her people to the necessary response of faith.

CCC 1124 “The Church’s faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles – whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex crdendi … The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition.”

CCC 1125 “For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.”

CCC 1099 “The Spirit and the Church cooperate to manifest Christ and his work of salvation in the liturgy. Primarily in the Eucharist, and by analogy in the other sacraments, the liturgy is the memorial of the mystery of salvation. The Holy Spirit is the Church’s living memory.”

CCC 1205 “In the liturgy, above all that of the sacraments, there is an immutable part, a part that is divinely instituted and of which the Church is the guardian, and parts that can be changed, which the Church has the power and on occasion also the duty to adapt to the cultures of recently evangelized peoples.”

I think it behooves us to trust the Church’s instructions for the Liturgy. The rubrics are either important or they are not. At what point does a Mass cease to be Liturgical? I do not like Priests concelebrating with the laity, Clowns dancing near the alter where we pray for Jesus’ arrival, introducing non biblical readings during the Liturgy of the Word, fooling around with the words in the Eucharistic Prayer, not using the proper matter etc. I do feel threatened not only that the Church is being challenged but that impediments to salvation may emerge. I am not saying that Jesus is not present in an abused Mass, but I am saying it goes against what the Church defines as the Liturgy. I fear that if abused too much Christ may not be present. The Church needs our support and our faithful response. If we pray the Mass as prescribed by the Church then my hope is strong that Christ’s sacrifice for my salvation is celebrated in the Mass. We will be sent forth from the Eucharist confident that we have received what is necessary to Love one another as Christ has loved us and strengthened to do the Father’s will. It all fits together or I fear it can all fall apart. God has been known to lose His patients with His people.

Sorry about the length. I have three more quotes from Pope Benedict’s Book Spirit of the Liturgy. I’ll post them next.

Christ’s Peace,

TJD

 

[TJD]

Originally posted by Robertaf

TJD,
I am not trying to be a smart aleck but how do you know this?
I have been a Catholic for a long time and no one has ever told me this.
This may be possible if the Priest is not a valid one.
Is there something I can read that says that?

A quote from then Cardinal Ratzinger’s book The Spirit of the Liturgy pp168-169. “The life of the liturgy does not come from what dawns upon the minds of individuals and planning groups. On the contrary, it is God’s descent upon our world, the source of real liberation. He alone can open the door to freedom. The more priests and faithful humbly surrender themselves to this descent of God, the more “new” the liturgy will constantly be, and the more true and personal it becomes. Yes, the liturgy becomes personal, true, and new, not through tomfoolery and banal experiments with the words, but through a courageous entry into the great reality that through the rite is always ahead of us and can never quite be overtaken.”

Again from The Spirit of the Liturgy p 175. “The almost theatrical entrance of different players into the liturgy, which is so common today, especially during the Preparation of the Gifts, quite simply misses the point. If the various external actions (as a matter of fact, there are not very many of them, though they are being artificially multiplied) become the essential in the liturgy, if the liturgy degenerates into general activity, then we have radically misunderstood the “theo-drama”of the liturgy and lapsed almost into parody.

One final quote from Pope Benedict, then I’ll stop. The Spirit of the Liturgy p 23 “The narrative of the golden calf is a warning about any kind of self-initiated and self-seeking worship. Ultimately, it is no longer concerned with God but with giving oneself a nice little alternative world, manufactured from one’s own resources. Then liturgy really does become pointless, just fooling around. Or still worse it becomes an apostasy from the living God, an apostasy in sacral disguise. All that is left in the end is frustration, a feeling of emptiness. There is no experience of that liberation which always takes place when man encounters the living God.”

Christ’s Peace,

TJD

 

[Searching13]

TJD:

Sorry, I got no direct reference for you with regard to my conclusion that if the Liturgy is abused too much then Christ may not be present in the Eucharist. I’ll try to explain my point non-the-less.

There are certain situations which will invalidate the consecration, but these are very specific.

I do not have the reference, but I know it is concerning the actual consecration, not many of these minor abuses which are so upsetting to some.

 

[Searching13]

Hi,
I have been lurking for a while, and have seen much concern about the rubrics. I really didn’t see a need to post until I attended a few Masses in an adult residence this week.

Most of the residents were in wheel chairs, but there were a few residents, as well as visitors and staff who were able to stand. The first day I stood for the gospel, but then noticed some residents struggling to stand. It was so sad to see—I remained seated for the entire Mass the next few days.

While I certainly agree that the GIRM should be followed, I also think that we should not be uncharitable toward our fellow Christians, or worse yet our priests and bishops.

The bishop is responsible for his entire flock, and I believe his interpretations (regarding matters within his authority) are to be followed. Many bishops do give this authority over to their Pastors. We are given instructions how to deal with abuse. If you see something which seems abusive, speak to your Pastor. If you do not like his response, call or write your Bishop. But please do not badmouth or ridicule your brothers or defy your Pastor.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

Hi,
I have been lurking for a while, and have seen much concern about the rubrics. I really didn’t see a need to post until I attended a few Masses in an adult residence this week.

Most of the residents were in wheel chairs, but there were a few residents, as well as visitors and staff who were able to stand. The first day I stood for the gospel, but then noticed some residents struggling to stand. It was so sad to see—I remained seated for the entire Mass the next few days.

And by the same tolken, I was at a parish where the innovation of Hand Holding at the Our Father, physically hurt our seniors. Yet, people on this board feel that if everyone else is doing it, those seniors (who do not want to look out of place) can just put their hands down. How embarrassing for them!

I give you credit. You have more compassion than some of the people here. You understand that to those people who lived through the changes in VII, when someone else does something, they feel they should. You get it, I wish everyone would.

 

[robertaf]

’

I don’t think adherence to or a desire for adherence to GIRM is being a pharisee. I think using it to monitor a Mass in much the same way a vulture monitors a dying rabbit for when it’s safe to swoop in is being a pharisee. I think using it to beat up on someone for an honest mistake is being a pharisee.

There are obviously abuses (but where are they using twinkies and apple juice to attempt to confect the Sacrifice?) that have to be addressed, but I think lots of times people use GIRM or the Bible or Tradition to whomp the almighty spit out of people. That’s being a Pharisee. To constantly monitor what others are wearing to Mass is being a pharisee. To notice that someone is wearing a string bikini to Mass? Not so much being a pharisee. To berate a priest for failing to light a certain number of candles at Mass? Pharisee. Asking him why, in contravention of Church practice, he NEVER lights candles for Mass? Not being a pharisee.

I think we ourselves know when we’re being pharisees and when we’re not, if we are truly trying to “put on Christ.”

EXACTLY!!!

You described what I meant about being “too uptight”. I didn’t mean it personally about anyone (although I think a few like to jump before they think) but that is what we are talking about, isn’t it.
I only wish I had the gift of words that you have shown here.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

Hi,
I have been lurking for a while, and have seen much concern about the rubrics. I really didn’t see a need to post until I attended a few Masses in an adult residence this week.

Most of the residents were in wheel chairs, but there were a few residents, as well as visitors and staff who were able to stand. The first day I stood for the gospel, but then noticed some residents struggling to stand. It was so sad to see—I remained seated for the entire Mass the next few days.

And by the same tolken, I was at a parish where the innovation of Hand Holding at the Our Father, physically hurt our seniors. Yet, people on this board feel that if everyone else is doing it, those seniors (who do not want to look out of place) can just put their hands down. How embarrassing for them!

I give you credit. You have more compassion than some of the people here. You understand that to those people who lived through the changes in VII, when someone else does something, they feel they should. You get it, I wish everyone would.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

There are certain situations which will invalidate the consecration, but these are very specific.

I do not have the reference, but I know it is concerning the actual consecration, not many of these minor abuses which are so upsetting to some.

For a list of what would make a consecration invalid, go here…
ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And by the same tolken, I was at a parish where the innovation of Hand Holding at the Our Father, physically hurt our seniors. Yet, people on this board feel that if everyone else is doing it, those seniors (who do not want to look out of place) can just put their hands down. How embarrassing for them!

I give you credit. You have more compassion than some of the people here. You understand that to those people who lived through the changes in VII, when someone else does something, they feel they should. You get it, I wish everyone would.

That was not exactly my point.

My point was that it is better to go with the majority, unless there is a serious abuse involved.

Also that sometimes a Pastor or Bishop will make a determination based on what is in the Spiritual good for the majority of the people.

It is never Christian behavior to bad mouth anyone, but it is even worse when you do not know the reason for the instruction, or it is not a major abuse.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

That was not exactly my point.

My point was that it is better to go with the majority, unless there is a serious abuse involved.

Also that sometimes a Pastor or Bishop will make a determination based on what is in the Spiritual good for the majority of the people.

It is never Christian behavior to bad mouth anyone, but it is even worse when you do not know the reason for the instruction, or it is not a major abuse.

If the majority wanted to lay prostrate on the floor, would that be okay too?

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

If the majority wanted to lay prostrate on the floor, would that be okay too?

Are you serious?

Aren’t we discussing situations we have encountered, and what can or should be done?

But on another note, perhaps there might be a Mass in a country where it was a custom to recline, and this might be a correct posture in that area. If I attended Mass in that country, under those circumstances, yes, I would recline.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

If the majority wanted to lay prostrate on the floor, would that be okay too?

No.

However, if the tradition at your parish is to stick your finger up your neighbor’s nose during the consecration, that would be licit.

And a wonderful symbol of a caring, sharing catholic faith community to boot.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

No.

However, if the tradition at your parish is to stick your finger up your neighbor’s nose during the consecration, that would be licit.

And a wonderful symbol of a caring, sharing catholic faith community to boot.

LIQUID ALERT! LIQUID ALERT!

Diet Coke in the keyboard!

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

Are you serious?

Aren’t we discussing situations we have encountered, and what can or should be done?

But on another note, perhaps there might be a Mass in a country where it was a custom to recline, and this might be a correct posture in that area. If I attended Mass in that country, under those circumstances, yes, I would recline.

I am serious.
The very “Deep Catholic” people in my parish would do this.
Right here in Michigan.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Where, where, where, are these ghastly abuses occuring? I’m not doubting that they occur, but where precisely? Our pastor celebrates a reverent Mass, I don’t often see mistakes or slips, let alone outright abuse. At one place in town, the priest still consecrates the wine in flagons. So that’s an abuse I’ve seen. Where do this other abuses occur, these flagrant and defiant abuses? Please don’t send me a link to “Novus Ordo Watch,” I’ve seen those before and I actually doubt that some of those are remotely current and I actually think some might be Episcopalian or something else. Where is this going on and have the ordinaries been contacted?

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I am serious.
The very “Deep Catholic” people in my parish would do this.
Right here in Michigan.

Do what?

I don’t know what “Deep Catholic” people do, but if it is what is being discussed here, I’m glad I am not “Deep Catholic”

As I said, I am trying to seriously discuss how to achieve a good balance between obedience, and common sense, but I think I’ll look elsewhere.

'Night kiddies

 

[netmilsmom]

JKirkLVNV:

Where, where, where, are these ghastly abuses occuring? I’m not doubting that they occur, but where precisely? Our pastor celebrates a reverent Mass, I don’t often see mistakes or slips, let alone outright abuse. At one place in town, the priest still consecrates the wine in flagons. So that’s an abuse I’ve seen. Where do this other abuses occur, these flagrant and defiant abuses? Please don’t send me a link to “Novus Ordo Watch,” I’ve seen those before and I actually doubt that some of those are remotely current and I actually think some might be Episcopalian or something else. Where is this going on and have the ordinaries been contacted?

Try my Vicariate in MI.
How about a church where there is an announcement that if you get more than one host at Communion, just swallow it.
How about a First Communion mass where all the First Communicants are around the altar.
How about a parish that is buying a new votive candle holder (while the first sits half empty) but is still uses Walmart wine glasses at the consecration, because they can’t afford to replace them.

Has the Diocese been contacted? I have personally seen letters sent. Is anything being done?


How about Stations done by a mine group? Okay, that’s not an abuse but I still cringe at it.