Pharisees & Rubrics

[mhansen]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

If the majority wanted to lay prostrate on the floor, would that be okay too?

I guess that would depend. The Carthusians do it, so I guess it can’t be all that bad…and yes, I did lay prostrate during my vocation discernment retreat, in case you’re wondering.

Mike

 

[Dr.Bombay]

JKirkLVNV:

Where, where, where, are these ghastly abuses occuring? I’m not doubting that they occur, but where precisely? Our pastor celebrates a reverent Mass, I don’t often see mistakes or slips, let alone outright abuse. At one place in town, the priest still consecrates the wine in flagons. So that’s an abuse I’ve seen. Where do this other abuses occur, these flagrant and defiant abuses? Please don’t send me a link to “Novus Ordo Watch,” I’ve seen those before and I actually doubt that some of those are remotely current and I actually think some might be Episcopalian or something else. Where is this going on and have the ordinaries been contacted?

How about a priest attempting to confect the Sacrament with what looked like a big hunk of rye bread? (Guardian Angels)

How about a priest who insists on dropping the word “men” in the Creed? And the same priest “creatively alters” the Eucharistic Prayer. And he uses a glass chalice, even though the bishop has specifically asked that glass chalices not be used. (Nativity of Mary)

How about kiddies around the altar at consecration. (St. John La Lande)

How about hand holding during the Our Father, armies of EMHC, OCP music (technically not an abuse, except to my poor abused ears), long lines for Communion, short to non-existent lines for confession? (Most every parish I’ve been to)

I could go on, but it sickens me. Oh, I could add girl altar boys, but that’s not an abuse since the Church has approved it. It just irritates me. I wonder how many vocations have been inspired by being a girl altar boy? Hmmmm…but I digress. :tsktsk:

As to the question of whether the abuses have been reported. Not by me. Why? Because I’m a parish troll. I attend Mass at a lot of different churches. I love looking at Church architecture. Even some of the newer ones are neat. Anyhoo, I’m not going to report an abuse at a parish that I’m not a member of. If the parishoners don’t want to do it, why should I? Am I my brother’s keeper?

Uhhhh…let me rephrase that…

 

[mhansen]

Dr. Bombay:

How about hand holding during the Our Father, armies of EMHC, OCP music (technically not an abuse, except to my poor abused ears)

I could go on, but it sickens me. Oh, I could add girl altar boys, but that’s not an abuse since the Church has approved it. It just irritates me. I wonder how many vocations have been inspired by being a girl altar boy? Hmmmm…but I digress. :tsktsk:

As to the question of whether the abuses have been reported. Not by me. Why? Because I’m a parish troll. I attend Mass at a lot of different churches. I love looking at Church architecture. Even some of the newer ones are neat. Anyhoo, I’m not going to report an abuse at a parish that I’m not a member of. If the parishoners don’t want to do it, why should I? Am I my brother’s keeper?

It seems a lot of things “sicken” you because they’re not to YOUR taste. Are you sure you know the reason why you’re going to Mass?

Here’s one that I could add to my “list”, if I had such a thing:

People that are “parish trolls”, not sticking with their local parish and supporting it to their fullest capacity. Not just monetarily, but perhaps with a little investment of their time. Then you’d have every opportunity you’d need to “correct” the wrongs you see, including the “girl altar boy” problem. Hey, maybe you can get up there yourself?

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Dr Bombay

I would say a few of these are possibly abuses, many you just don’t like but you do not dislike them or offended badly enough by the abuses to do anything about them?

Ok.

The host looks like rye bread? Did you receive Communion? Can’t you tell if it is rye bread of home made, unleavened wheat bread?

I think the question was were are all the GHASTLY abuses.
Which of these are Ghastly abuses?

A number of them are allowed.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

mhansen:

It seems a lot of things “sicken” you because they’re not to YOUR taste. Are you sure you know the reason why you’re going to Mass?

Here’s one that I could add to my “list”, if I had such a thing:

People that are “parish trolls”, not sticking with their local parish and supporting it to their fullest capacity. Not just monetarily, but perhaps with a little investment of their time. Then you’d have every opportunity you’d need to “correct” the wrongs you see, including the “altar girl” problem. Hey, maybe you can get up there yourself?

Since you seem to have been given the gift of reading hearts, please tell me why I go to Mass.

I do have a parish that I support to my fullest capacity and am there every Sunday. I don’t believe I’ve seen you there tho. That really makes me wonder about you. However, I like to look at different style churches. I’ve even been known to pop inside a traditionally built Episcopal church now and again. Just to look, not covert.

There is no girl altar boy problem. It’s been approved, so I could hardly “correct” it, no?

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

Greetings Dr Bombay

I would say a few of these are possibly abuses, many you just don’t like but you do not dislike them or offended badly enough by the abuses to do anything about them?

Ok.

The host looks like rye bread? Did you receive Communion? Can’t you tell if it is rye bread of home made, unleavened wheat bread?

I think the question was were are all the GHASTLY abuses.
Which of these are Ghastly abuses?

A number of them are allowed.

Ghastly is in the eye of the beholder.
When it comes to Our Lord, an unintentioned mistake is a mistake.
An abuse is illicit.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

robertaf:

Greetings Dr Bombay

I would say a few of these are possibly abuses, many you just don’t like but you do not dislike them or offended badly enough by the abuses to do anything about them?

Ok.

The host looks like rye bread? Did you receive Communion? Can’t you tell if it is rye bread of home made, unleavened wheat bread?

I think the question was were are all the GHASTLY abuses.
Which of these are Ghastly abuses?

A number of them are allowed.

Oh, I wouldn’t say any of them are ghastly abuses. Except for the rye bread. When I saw the priest hold that up at the consecration, I walked out. NO WAY was I going to receive Communion there.

Even the priest who alters the Eucharistic Prayer doesn’t alter the words of consecration, so no problem there.

As for doing anything about them…I have a feeling our good new bishop will take care of the most grevious, ie invalid matter and glass chalices. I think he has a low tolerance for being openly defied. Can’t wait.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

Oh, I wouldn’t say any of them are ghastly abuses. Except for the rye bread. When I saw the priest hold that up at the consecration, I walked out. NO WAY was I going to receive Communion there.

I would have to say that any abuse, that is an intentional disregard of the rubics is ghastly!

 

[mhansen]

Dr. Bombay:

Since you seem to have been given the gift of reading hearts, please tell me why I go to Mass.

I do have a parish that I support to my fullest capacity and am there every Sunday. I don’t believe I’ve seen you there tho. That really makes me wonder about you. However, I like to look at different style churches. I’ve even been known to pop inside a traditionally built Episcopal church now and again. Just to look, not covert.

There is no girl altar boy problem. It’s been approved, so I could hardly “correct” it, no?

Dear Dr,

I’m not reading hearts. I’m reading your words.

If the “girl altar boy” (such a derogatory term) problem isn’t a problem that needs correcting, and it’s approved, why is it on this thread? Why create a problem where there isn’t one? I’m sure there is a “girl altar boy” or two here reading your post, and I’m sure it doesn’t make their day to know there are people out there who think so little of the way they serve God that they feel the need to post complaints about them on a public forum with heavy, heavy traffic.

As for the “not seeing me at your parish” part, well, I don’t quite know what to say to such a ridiculous statement. I don’t routinely wear my “mhansen” name tag when I go to Mass, but if you invite me, I’ll make sure I do.

Peace

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I would have to say that any abuse, that is an intentional disregard of the rubics is ghastly!

Yes, but there’s different levels of ghastly. Using invalid matter to confect the Eucharist would be a ten. Maybe glass chalices would only be a two on the ghastly-o-meter.

Now, if we had an “irritated and sickened-o-meter” girl altar boys would rate at least a 7. OCP music is a definite 10. Sing a new church into being. BAH!

 

[Dr.Bombay]

mhansen:

Dear Dr,

I’m not reading hearts. I’m reading your words.

If the “girl altar boy” (such a derogatory term) problem isn’t a problem that needs correcting, and it’s approved, why is it on this thread? Why create a problem where there isn’t one? I’m sure there is a “girl altar boy” or two here reading your post, and I’m sure it doesn’t make their day to know there are people out there who think so little of the way they serve God that they feel the need to post complaints about them on a public forum with heavy, heavy traffic.

As for the “not seeing me at your parish” part, well, I don’t quite know what to say to such a ridiculous statement. I don’t routinely wear my “mhansen” name tag when I go to Mass, but if you invite me, I’ll make sure I do.

Peace

Who’s complaining? I was just stating an opinion. If any girl altar boys are offended, I apologize. (Shouldn’t you be in bed at this time of night, young Miss? :tsktsk: )

However, let’s not be naive. Girl altar boys did start out as an abuse in the American Church. It sickens me (again) that a bunch of man-hating radicals have used little girls to push their peculiar political agenda on the Church.

And, you’re always welcome at my parish. :tiphat:

 

[robertaf]

Dr Bombay,

Wow, you do make strong statements.

I do think you are wasting your time posting here where nothing gets accomplished.

I think you should go straight to the Bishop and tell him, verbatum, everything you are saying here.

It sure shoudl impress him. Especially about the man-haters. That is really powerful.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Those are very bad things that Net and Dr. cite. I’ve never seen anything like that, except in the Diocese of Monterey, when I was visiting and one parish in New Mexico.

The only thing I can say is vote with your feet OR write your bishop and cc the letter to the appropriate congregation in the Holy See or to the Holy Father himself. I still think that bishops don’t like to be seen by their boss (the Pope/the Holy See) in a bad light. You might get action. If there are many concerned people, you might contact a canon law society to help you. They may do it for a nominal fee. Also, I think things are changing as the old order retires and younger, more orthodox men are ordained.

 

[mhansen]

Dr. Bombay:

Oh, I wouldn’t say any of them are ghastly abuses. Except for the rye bread. When I saw the priest hold that up at the consecration, I walked out. NO WAY was I going to receive Communion there.

With all due respect, unless you had a chemical composition test done on what you suspect was “rye bread”, or a confirmation by whoever it was that supplied said “rye bread”, I wouldn’t be too quick to pass judgment. If you’re relying on what your eyes told you, you may have turned your back on the Blessed Sacrament.

My eyes have deceived me many a time, and even with 20/15 vision, I know it would be impossible for me to differentiate between the ingredients of rye bread and wheat bread based solely on sight from even the closest pew in the church.

I will take you up on the offer of visiting your parish though, if I ever happen to pass through.

Peace,
Mike

 

[netmilsmom]

JKirkLVNV:

Those are very bad things that Net and Dr. cite. I’ve never seen anything like that, except in the Diocese of Monterey, when I was visiting and one parish in New Mexico.

The only thing I can say is vote with your feet OR write your bishop and cc the letter to the appropriate congregation in the Holy See or to the Holy Father himself. I still think that bishops don’t like to be seen by their boss (the Pope/the Holy See) in a bad light. You might get action. If there are many concerned people, you might contact a canon law society to help you. They may do it for a nominal fee. Also, I think things are changing as the old order retires and younger, more orthodox men are ordained.

You are very wise!
Most in my Vicariate are voting with their feet… My parish is growing by leaps and bounds (we have grown out of our church).
I know of many who are writing the Vatican.
The problem is that when people who have no clue, are told by those in authority that the abuses are “from the Diocese” it stops them dead in their tracks. Some oldster who thinks they found a loophole leads the pack. As I said on another thread, many of us attend mass as an obligation and don’t feel a thing. And when we come to CA or another website, we are told that it is UnChristian to complain. Well, when one has done all one can do, that’s all we have. Maybe if we complain, some lurker will feel better about the pain of loss he feels. Loss was what I felt until I found my parish.

In my Diocese, our Cardinal is on the verge of retirement. Many of us are waiting and praying. I would like to move back home to Cleveland. The people under Pilla are doing the same. I know of people there who had parties when B16 was elected, just in hopes of getting a Bishop Olmstead type to clean up the mess.
Ever see the Rainbow Flagged gay ministry on the Cleveland Diocese website? Trust me, it’s been lightened up since the election of B16. As has the association between “First Church” and the Diocese. They haven’t kicked them off of one of the church properties though.

It is amazing, when one sits in a good church or a good Diocese, how bad it can be out there.

 

[PJR]

Dr. Bombay:

No.

However, if the tradition at your parish is to stick your finger up your neighbor’s nose during the consecration, that would be licit.

And a wonderful symbol of a caring, sharing catholic faith community to boot.

You seem fairly angry about nearly everything in almost every parish you have ever been to. I am just curious. What music book or missal would you like to see used to replace OCP? What instrument do you play at church or are you a cantor? I would like to know which songs are given your own Imprimatur.

How many at your parish should be denied communion because you didn’t see them at confession? Just a little curious as to how this abuse is the fault of the parish priest. Maybe you should poll communicants as they approach the Eucharist as to whether you feel they are in a state of grace.

PS-you’ll probably be able to tell by the way they walk.

Are you a catechist? Or maybe a canon lawyer? You have such superior knowledge of the rubrics you should offer your services to all these different parishes in which you lurk. You could be the lurking consultant for your bishop. My pastor and my bishop are canon lawyers and they didn’t know girl altar boys were the result of a manhater agenda. Also if you were volunteering to teach the young, they may gain from your knowledge and dedication to the faith and would have a better understanding of the Sacraments and the teachings of the Church.

One more question. If for some reason the day comes when we do not have access to “mass produced” -pardon the pun- communion hosts as we usually have here in this country and in the Latin Rite thanks to the convents who lovingly supply them to us, would unleavened bread made of wheat that looks like a big piece of rye pita invalidate the Eucharist? Would there never under any circumstances be a situation where homemade bread would be permissable? It should only be done with permission of course, using all the standards for the host laid out in the CCC.

Since there seems to be so few priests and bishops in this country who know what they are doing or anything at all about what the Church really teaches, and they continually lead us astray-right under the Pope’s nose too-we should have a task force to compile a black list. I vote for you guys to be in charge. We could sort everyone out into two categories. Deep Catholics and Ankle Waders. Any not on the Deep list should be ignored, defrocked, run out on a rail. Oh, it’s going to be perfect!! I think we should have special hats or something to identify ourselves at parish functions. I have always liked armbands too… Of course our theme song is Onward Christian Soldiers-thankfully it is NOT in the OCP book. Don’t sing it with too much feeling though, because we’re not having any of that touchy feely business. We’ll show em how to be miserable. It will be great.

 

[mosher]

mhansen:

With all due respect, unless you had a chemical composition test done on what you suspect was “rye bread”, or a confirmation by whoever it was that supplied said “rye bread”, I wouldn’t be too quick to pass judgment. If you’re relying on what your eyes told you, you may have turned your back on the Blessed Sacrament.

My eyes have deceived me many a time, and even with 20/15 vision, I know it would be impossible for me to differentiate between the ingredients of rye bread and wheat bread based solely on sight from even the closest pew in the church.

I will take you up on the offer of visiting your parish though, if I ever happen to pass through.

Peace,
Mike

the canonical rule of thumb is that between certitude and uncertitude one is never required to choose uncertitude

 

[mosher]

A point about altar girls. It is true that it started out as an abuse. Just like using women in any ministerial role in the liturgy. However, the Holy See gave permission for the use of women when necessary in ministerial roles in the liturgy.

I see that quite a number of person have been way laying Dr. Bombay for what he is saying. And I would offer this one point. Among those who interest themselves with the functions of the liturgy there are two categories that most place liturgical actions in - Licit & Illicit. These are fairly easy catigories to fill. Now, under the licit category there is another two sub-categories which I will call - Proper & Allowed. In these sub-categories is where we find the most contention usually because most Catholics have only seen things in the liturgy that fall into the Allowed category such as OCP music and female servers/readers/EMC’s etc. However, very few have seen what would fill the Proper category such as the use of the Graduale Romanum, male ministers, no recessionaly hymn. I think that in Dr. Bombay’s posing we can see things that fit into the Proper sub-category and there is nothing wrong with that. Just because something is allowed does not mean that it should be done all the time.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

mosher:

A point about altar girls. It is true that it started out as an abuse. Just like using women in any ministerial role in the liturgy. However, the Holy See gave permission for the use of women when necessary in ministerial roles in the liturgy.

I see that quite a number of person have been way laying Dr. Bombay for what he is saying. And I would offer this one point. Among those who interest themselves with the functions of the liturgy there are two categories that most place liturgical actions in - Licit & Illicit. These are fairly easy catigories to fill. Now, under the licit category there is another two sub-categories which I will call - Proper & Allowed. In these sub-categories is where we find the most contention usually because most Catholics have only seen things in the liturgy that fall into the Allowed category such as OCP music and female servers/readers/EMC’s etc. However, very few have seen what would fill the Proper category such as the use of the Graduale Romanum, male ministers, no recessionaly hymn. I think that in Dr. Bombay’s posing we can see things that fit into the Proper sub-category and there is nothing wrong with that. Just because something is allowed does not mean that it should be done all the time.

But if it’s allowed, it CAN be done all the time. If it’s allowed, then by that token, it cannot be framed an abuse. That includes the altar girls (something I’m not terribly fond of). If we sit around constantly critiquing every Mass we attend, I don’t think that’s good for our souls ("I give it a 7, it had a nice beat, but not as good as Father Michael’s over at Sacred Heart).

The word abuse gets tossed around an awful lot on these forums, as does the term *liberal *(and, admittedly, rad-trad).

 

[fix]

PJR:

You seem fairly angry about nearly everything in almost every parish you have ever been to. I am just curious. What music book or missal would you like to see used to replace OCP? What instrument do you play at church or are you a cantor? I would like to know which songs are given your own Imprimatur.

How many at your parish should be denied communion because you didn’t see them at confession? Just a little curious as to how this abuse is the fault of the parish priest. Maybe you should poll communicants as they approach the Eucharist as to whether you feel they are in a state of grace.

PS-you’ll probably be able to tell by the way they walk.

Are you a catechist? Or maybe a canon lawyer? You have such superior knowledge of the rubrics you should offer your services to all these different parishes in which you lurk. You could be the lurking consultant for your bishop. My pastor and my bishop are canon lawyers and they didn’t know girl altar boys were the result of a manhater agenda. Also if you were volunteering to teach the young, they may gain from your knowledge and dedication to the faith and would have a better understanding of the Sacraments and the teachings of the Church.

One more question. If for some reason the day comes when we do not have access to “mass produced” -pardon the pun- communion hosts as we usually have here in this country and in the Latin Rite thanks to the convents who lovingly supply them to us, would unleavened bread made of wheat that looks like a big piece of rye pita invalidate the Eucharist? Would there never under any circumstances be a situation where homemade bread would be permissable? It should only be done with permission of course, using all the standards for the host laid out in the CCC.

Since there seems to be so few priests and bishops in this country who know what they are doing or anything at all about what the Church really teaches, and they continually lead us astray-right under the Pope’s nose too-we should have a task force to compile a black list. I vote for you guys to be in charge. We could sort everyone out into two categories. Deep Catholics and Ankle Waders. Any not on the Deep list should be ignored, defrocked, run out on a rail. Oh, it’s going to be perfect!! I think we should have special hats or something to identify ourselves at parish functions. I have always liked armbands too… Of course our theme song is Onward Christian Soldiers-thankfully it is NOT in the OCP book. Don’t sing it with too much feeling though, because we’re not having any of that touchy feely business. We’ll show em how to be miserable. It will be great.

I guess our new Pope is all wrong about the abuses that have been ongoing for so many years?