Pharisees & Rubrics

[JKirkLVNV]

QUICUMQUE VULT:

It is the little Fox , who spoils the vine.

As do people looking for something to upset themselves over! If you look hard enough, you will surely find it.

 

[Searching13]

…snort…ahem. Netmil(name removed by moderator) is good people, be nice. Besides, I very much doubt you’d see her at a Charismatic Mass.

I am very nice, especially to a senior who loves to hold my hand. So what’s with the seniors who can’t hold hands? (I doubt this would be an issue at a Tridentine or Latin Mass) and what is a tolken???

 

[mosher]

JKirkLVNV:

I’ll stick to my original statement. If the Bishop permits the laity to rec. in the hand and the Holy See permits it, but prefers that they rec. on the tongue, I’m not going to go with the “spirit” (what is desired), I’m going to go with what is permitted. Why? (hypothetically. I don’t really care) Because I don’t like people sticking their hands in or near my mouth. Does this make me a bad Christian, because I avail myself of something the Church permits? I may well be a bad Christian, but not because of this, because the Church permits it. When they cease to permit it, I’ll comply. Ya know, we hear an awful lot about the binding power of the Holy Father. He also has the authority to loosen, to unbind. Also, I don’t think we need to have goosestepping uniformity…otherwise, the traditionalists who insist on kneeling for communion contrary to the directives of the bishops (and the Holy See recognizes the bishops competance to govern this, though communion may not be refused) would be in the same predicament as those who don’t wish to rec. on the tongue.

I see your point but your analogy is not correct because it is a principle of law that one cannot be denied the universal norm however one can be denied a permitted allowance.

 

[mosher]

JKirkLVNV:

See, this is where I decided I was tired of the liturgy police sitting inside my head and carping on and on about Father’s crystal chalice and paten. “Let it go”, says I to myself, “It could be worse,” because you know what? It could well indeed be worse. I’m grateful to have a priest who celebrates Mass reverently. Heck, I’m better off than lots of Catholics in the USA, as I have a pastor, a parochial vicar, and two priests living in the rectory that are assigned solely to sick ministry, but who say Mass for our parish as supply priests. We have Adoration (about to open a 24 hour Adoration chapel), Benediction, prayer groups and Bible studies. There are places in this country where priests say Mass at several different parishes and have to drive long distances to do it. There are places in this world with not priests available for long periods of time. There are places (China) where the Church is persecuted and is underground. I think I’ll let Father slide on the crystal chalice. I’m not saying that we should wing it, as far as the rubrics go. I’m just saying I’m grateful for what I have, a good priest.

While reading this I remembered that all my Vietnamese friends that served time in Chinese prisons for their faith who were studying to be priests were very very concerned about the proper celebration of the mass according to the rubrics. So, I always remember them when I hear the “it could be worse” discussion come up.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

mosher:

I see your point but your analogy is not correct because it is a principle of law that one cannot be denied the universal norm however one can be denied a permitted allowance.

I acknowledged that it was a permitted allowance, I believe.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

mosher:

While reading this I remembered that all my Vietnamese friends that served time in Chinese prisons for their faith who were studying to be priests were very very concerned about the proper celebration of the mass according to the rubrics. So, I always remember them when I hear the “it could be worse” discussion come up.

The point I was attempting to make is that we can become liturgical nitpickers when, in truth, we’re lucky to have the Mass and priests to say It. I didn’t say, “Blow off the rubrics.” Please see my last sentence, but one, of the post you quote.

 

[mosher]

JKirkLVNV:

The point I was attempting to make is that we can become liturgical nitpickers when, in truth, we’re lucky to have the Mass and priests to say It. I didn’t say, “Blow off the rubrics.” Please see my last sentence, but one, of the post you quote.

No, I know what you meant it is just that it reminded me of my friends.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

mosher:

No, I know what you meant it is just that it reminded me of my friends.

God bless them!

 

[robertaf]

JKirkLVNV:

The point I was attempting to make is that we can become liturgical nitpickers when, in truth, we’re lucky to have the Mass and priests to say It. I didn’t say, “Blow off the rubrics.” Please see my last sentence, but one, of the post you quote.

This is the part that really troubles me. If you do not appreciate the approach someone else uses, or even if you don’t like their approach, they jump all over you and accuse you of “blowing off the rubrics”. I rarely come to Liturgy & Sacraments because of this. It seems to be impossible for a few folks to take part in a ligitimate dialogue without getting “up tight”.

That is cool if you want to live your life that way. I don’t.

I got to think about folks who are truly persecuted in their faith. I have talked to folks who were Catholics in some Communist countries during the “cold war”. I heard of babies being baptized in trash cans filled with water. Using old tin plates to celebrate the Eucharist. I heard of a Priest being shot in the head as he led the Rosary in a home, he had been turned into the KGB by one of his parishioners.

We have it too easy here. Too much time on our hands.

If you all want to continue to fight this out, be my guest.
It isn’t enough that Catholics and non Catholics continue to rip apart the Body of Christ, Catholics have to rip at Catholics.
If you think this is pleasing to the Lord, thats great.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

PJR:

You seem fairly angry about nearly everything in almost every parish you have ever been to. I am just curious. What music book or missal would you like to see used to replace OCP? What instrument do you play at church or are you a cantor? I would like to know which songs are given your own Imprimatur.

How many at your parish should be denied communion because you didn’t see them at confession? Just a little curious as to how this abuse is the fault of the parish priest. Maybe you should poll communicants as they approach the Eucharist as to whether you feel they are in a state of grace.

PS-you’ll probably be able to tell by the way they walk.

Are you a catechist? Or maybe a canon lawyer? You have such superior knowledge of the rubrics you should offer your services to all these different parishes in which you lurk. You could be the lurking consultant for your bishop. My pastor and my bishop are canon lawyers and they didn’t know girl altar boys were the result of a manhater agenda. Also if you were volunteering to teach the young, they may gain from your knowledge and dedication to the faith and would have a better understanding of the Sacraments and the teachings of the Church.

One more question. If for some reason the day comes when we do not have access to “mass produced” -pardon the pun- communion hosts as we usually have here in this country and in the Latin Rite thanks to the convents who lovingly supply them to us, would unleavened bread made of wheat that looks like a big piece of rye pita invalidate the Eucharist? Would there never under any circumstances be a situation where homemade bread would be permissable? It should only be done with permission of course, using all the standards for the host laid out in the CCC.

Since there seems to be so few priests and bishops in this country who know what they are doing or anything at all about what the Church really teaches, and they continually lead us astray-right under the Pope’s nose too-we should have a task force to compile a black list. I vote for you guys to be in charge. We could sort everyone out into two categories. Deep Catholics and Ankle Waders. Any not on the Deep list should be ignored, defrocked, run out on a rail. Oh, it’s going to be perfect!! I think we should have special hats or something to identify ourselves at parish functions. I have always liked armbands too… Of course our theme song is Onward Christian Soldiers-thankfully it is NOT in the OCP book. Don’t sing it with too much feeling though, because we’re not having any of that touchy feely business. We’ll show em how to be miserable. It will be great.

You have hit upon the perfect plan for retaking our Church. I commend you and tip my special hat to your ingenuity. :tiphat:

I’ll continue to keep things rolling on my end. You do what you can, all the while keeping the Enemy unawares. And if anyone starts to suspect you, immediately launch into a chorus of “Here I am Lord, it is I Lord, I have heard you calling in the ni…iiiiii…iiiite…” This insidious doggerel will worm it’s way into their consciousness and distract them long enough for you to make good your escape.

The crow flys at midnight.

 

[netmilsmom]

…snort…ahem. Netmil(name removed by moderator) is good people, be nice. Besides, I very much doubt you’d see her at a Charismatic Mass.

OH my dear Friend, You’ve got that right!
I would be getting many souls out of Purgatory if I were forced to endure one!

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

OH my dear Friend, You’ve got that right!
I would be getting many souls out of Purgatory if I were forced to endure one!

Well where were these seniors being forced to hold hands?

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

I had left this thread, but then I remembered something from the adult residence.

Those seniors were so greatful when someone took their hand—this is the alzheimers wing.—many have trouble remembering their name, but they remembered the Lord’s prayer (in English) and gave such a beautiful smile when someone took their hand.

Perhaps your seniors were standing next to the Charismatic wrestlers?

Good one!

I was an office manager for two Psychiatrists and five therapists. If the seniors were in the AS wing, watch them smile when anyone touches them. They are deep in Dementia. Depending on the severity of their progression, they were unaware of what their hands were being held for. It had nothing to do with the mass.
Now, for the seniors in my former parish. I have explained this before.
I was in a parish where the DRE was replaced with a Charistmatic lady. Sweet as the day is long, I truly love her as a person. The problem is that she felt that this was the ONE way to worship and everyone who did not “feel” the Spirit needed help.
Over time and with a priest who was retiring and left most of the parish concerns to the office staff, the staff became filled with her friends and family members. We went from folding our hands for the Our Father, to holding and lifting them in four years. Our poor seniors (many of them who went to FL for the winter) were surprised by the change. But understand, these were the people who lived through Vatican II. They went along.
I would visit some of them or talk to them because I was on a couple commitees. I would see people visibly whince when someone grabbed their hand and lifted it. When I asked why each did it, the answer was either, “I don’t want to look out of place.” or “I thought we were suppose to.”

We began to get a couple of pews in the back of the church that were “No hand holding” areas. If I had stayed, I’m sure many others would be dropping their hands.

And please let me state again, I have no problem with the Charistmatic Catholics having masses their way. I have a huge problem when this is all that is offered. In my home parish in Cleveland, our 9:00am mass was “Conservative” and the 10:30am, was the “Progressive”. Since the wonderful priest died (God rest his soul!) the parish has gone totally progressive.

But those of us who want an NO with the Latin and Greek, the bows the kneeling etc. have to look long and hard to find it.
And that is a shame.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

Well where were these seniors being forced to hold hands?

Please see post 112.
I’ve explained it again because you are new.

 

[Searching13]

I’ve read through many of these threads, and I do see much passion and love of the Mass. This is a wonderful thing, but we must not loose sight of the greatest commandment, which is Love.

On one hand we see the servant who is faithful in small matters (minor abuses) who will be faithful in larger matters, but taken to the extreme becomes rigid and judgemental.

On the other extreme is instances of real abuse (especially in teaching) which was reported in another thread.

I guess balance is the key.

I’ve also seen a much go around about the standing norm, and the right to kneel.

IMHO If you are really sincere about following the rubrics, you will stand in the Pauline Mass, and kneel in the Tridentine Mass, regardless of your “rights”

I do thank God that I am in a good parish, with really no abuses (the worse thing is that we were not instructed to bow during the creed)

I do feel sorry for those of you in an abusive Parish, or worse yet --diocese, where there is really no where to turn.

Regardless of how you personally feel, the authority of the Pastor should be respected, except in a matter of faith or morals (as was reported in the other thread)

Any abuses should be discussed first with the Pastor, and then reported to the Bishop, if there is no satisfactory response. It is not up to any individual to correct or embarass his neighbor, especially in a minor matter.

As Roberta said

If you all want to continue to fight this out, be my guest.
It isn’t enough that Catholics and non Catholics continue to rip apart the Body of Christ, Catholics have to rip at Catholics.
If you think this is pleasing to the Lord, thats great.

And as Scripture says 1Cor 13:13
In the end only these three remain–Faith, Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

I got to think about folks who are truly persecuted in their faith. I have talked to folks who were Catholics in some Communist countries during the “cold war”. I heard of babies being baptized in trash cans filled with water. Using old tin plates to celebrate the Eucharist. I heard of a Priest being shot in the head as he led the Rosary in a home, he had been turned into the KGB by one of his parishioners.

We have it too easy here. Too much time on our hands.

I am in a Slovakian Catholic Parish. The people and our priests went through just what you are talking about.
They would NEVER think of pushing the envelope as some want to.
As our pastor says when someone tells him about the progressive parish each came from, he says, “We do it right. This is what the Post Vatican II mass should be like.”
Maybe looking at the Priests from the Iron Curtain countries would be a good idea.

 

[Searching13]

PS

I was an office manager for two Psychiatrists and five therapists. If the seniors were in the AS wing, watch them smile when anyone touches them. They are deep in Dementia. Depending on the severity of their progression, they were unaware of what their hands were being held for. It had nothing to do with the mass.

These seniors were not in deep dementia, (those poor souls were not brought to Mass) These were very aware that they were at Mass. As I said, they struggled to get up for the gospel, and knew all the responses.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

I am very nice, especially to a senior who loves to hold my hand. So what’s with the seniors who can’t hold hands? (I doubt this would be an issue at a Tridentine or Latin Mass) and what is a tolken???

I think that you should hold hands with the seniors throughout the entire mass.
In the meantime, some compassion for those who have arthritic hands or shoulders should also be the rule of the day.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

PS These seniors were not in deep dementia, (those poor souls were not brought to Mass) These were very aware that they were at Mass. As I said, they struggled to get up for the gospel, and knew all the responses.

You do understand that there are different stages of Dementia, right?
There is a reason why each is assigned to that ward.
The doctors do not put seniors on an AS ward because they are a little forgetful. These patients are diagnosed.
And while I know that many of them, if not all of them knew they were attending mass, that does not mean that the touch of another person was associated mentally with the Mass.

One of the tests for Senior Dementia is to have them sing a song. If a person begins one and ends with another, it’s a sure sign that Dementia has taken hold. Attending a Holy Mass every Sunday for the entire life of a senior, of course they would attempt the proper responses. As my mom always said, “Catholic is in you.”

 

[Searching13]

Please stop—I am saying that I knew they were responding to that part of the Mass. You were not there, nor do you know the degree of the dimentia. These seniors did know it was that part of the Mass, and did appreciate it.

But my point was that not every senior feels pain when holding hands. Some do, some don’t.