Philippians 2:12 AND 13 (with excerpts edited out in order to achieve the character limits)

[decreasing]

I recently posted this relatively short explanation of a passage in Philippians on a discussion board that was apparently not intended for an in-depth discussion. I was actually referred to this forum to present it for discussion, so here am I. And I quote:

"I have had the pleasure of meditating on this passage and discussing it many times since I was first confronted with it as I debated with a Roman Catholic priest in his office in Columbus, Ohio. When he brought it to my attention, I thought that he was mistaken. There was no way that Paul could have written those words! To my shock, though, he certainly had.

That shock was subdued with further examination…

…on Philippians 2:12-13…

“… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
(Php 2:12-13 ESV)

“[W]ork out your own salvation with fear and trembling…”

This is the part that really got me when I heard it come from the mouth of the priest. In fact, this is all that he quoted. This alone seems to totally destroy all that it seems Paul taught in his other writings, but when taken with the rest of his sentence instead of all by itself, plucked right out of its context, it is so much more significant and compatible with the rest of his writings. Let me show you…

Paul not only tells believers to work out their own salvation while trembling fearfully, but He also tells them WHY they need to be doing it with this disposition. I would ask Paul, “Why would I need to be fearing and trembling so much when doing this work of my salvation? Hasn’t Christ already accomplished the work of my salvation? What have I to fear?” And Paul would inevitably answer me, “Would you just listen to the rest of my sentence?! Haven’t you read what the Lord’s brother James wrote: “let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak’?” So, then I would listen a little more intently to his words and find out why he was saying this:

“FOR…”

For? Of course! “For” (which could Just as easily be translated “Because”) is an indication that an explanation is on its way. So I can know exactly what Paul meant when he instructed believers to work out their own salvation because he gives his own interpretation of his words in the very next clause:

(Remember—“FOR”) “…it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Let’s take this piece by piece…

We notice first that Paul gives the actual reason in the very first part of this second part of the sentence: “it is God who works in you…” So the reason we are to fear is because God is the one working in us? Interesting. Why would that cause fear? Wouldn’t that cause confidence and joy? I would say so, but Paul just got done exhorting the Philippian Christians to have a humble spirit like the one Christ had when He willingly subjected Himself to His Father.

So how does this instruction to fearfully tremble in the work of our own salvation flow from an exhortation to be humble? Well, what does it mean to be humble? Does it not mean that we do not exalt ourselves to a great position? Doesn’t it mean to divert the attention away from ourselves and towards another? So, in the case of the working of our salvation, our being humble, and our trembling as we work out our salvation, it would seem that we are to be extremely careful not to do this work with the false notion that we are the ones actually accomplishing these works.

Since we know that believers are to humbly acknowledge God’s working in our lives in fearful trembling, now we have to ask how much we are to attribute to Him. Thankfully, Paul gives us the answer to that as well:

“…both to will AND to work for his good pleasure.” (emphasis mine)

This just goes deeper and deeper does it not? Not only are we to humbly recognize God’s work in our salvation as the one who does it through our fearful and trembling actions, but we now know that God not only gives us the will—He also gives us the specific actions that we accomplish! God “in [us]” works the will and the work! Amazing!

Now, suppose I am a synergist who believes that if God doesn’t get my compliance He’s outta luck in His mission to save me. If that were true of me, then I would have to do some serious re-evaluation of my theological structure of beliefs. I want to be in line with what God’s word teaches, and this Holy Spirit inspired church father is telling me that God is the one who is doing all the things that I myself am prone to believe I did of my own free choice and compliance with God. I mean, GOD is giving ME the will to work for HIS good pleasure! And not only that, but He is actually doing the work through me! I just don’t know how else to understand this passage. Paul is saying that even our continued life after regeneration is a life filled with actions given to us directly by the primary, causal actions of God Himself.

This gives a whole new perspective to the Christian life (for those who never noticed it). And if what Paul says is true, [name withheld to protect the innocent] , your whole understanding of this passage is backwards. Believers are not to fear and tremble because they are trying to work with God in an attempt to secure their salvation. No, they are to work hard towards the end that their calling and election will be made sure (II Pet. 1:10) while ever bearing in mind that they are totally in the hands of God’s grace and not helping God finish the work."

 

[Nita]

I’m not sure just what point you would like discussed. It helps if you include a question to spark discussion.

So long as you are not denying our free will, your points seem to coincide with Catholic teaching – unless I’m misunderstanding you. God continually works and makes His grace available to help us **will **to do good and to do that good. Here is some commentary from the Haydock Bible ( haydock1859.tripod.com )

Ver. 12. With fear and trembling. That is, be equally upon your guard against presumption and despair. St. Paul is anxious to inspire a just confidence in Jesus Christ, but he is not less solicitous to root out all self-confidence arising from our supposed merits or excellence.

Ver. 13. It is God who worketh in you both to will and to accomplish. We can neither have a will, nor begin, nor fulfil any thing of ourselves, in order to a reward in heaven. (Witham) — Our free-will is not taken away, or we should not be commanded to work; but it is added, with fear and trembling, says St. Augustine, that we might not be proud of our good works. (De grat. et de lib. ab. chap. ix.)

Re “fear and trembling”: I’ve never even thought of interpreting the verse in the sense that we should experience fear and trembling because of God’s presence in us. Rather, knowing that God is working in us to will and do good, we should be aware that when we choose to do something that is not good, we are striving against God’s active presence in us. I don’t know about you, but IMO, the thought of knowingly and willingly battling, so to speak, against God should make one tremble. It’s my refusal to cooperate with God that should cause me to fear and tremble; and it’s the consequences of such a refusal that should cause me to fear and tremble.

 

[ebcat]

I’m with Nita on this one. What do you want to know? I hope your not insinuating that we Catholics “work” our way to salvation. That has never been a church teaching. Its not in Catechism of the Catholic Church.

As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. If any Catholic, or Christian for that matter, takes credit for the good actions he is doing in his/her life, they are sorely mistaken. They are from God. Eph 2:10 says “for we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

He already laid out all the good works for us. We just have to say yes to them

 

[decreasing]

Nita,

Sorry about not asking a specific question, but I have heard the same argument and application from this passage from every Roman Catholic that I’ve spoken to about it. Whenever the passage is brought up, it is only the last part of the first verse that is mentioned ("…work out your salvation with fear and trembling…"). This is used in a way that supposedly supports Roman Catholic teaching concerning the possibility of losing your salvation. I have offered this interpretation in response to that argument.

You mentioned that you were ok with this interpretation “So long as * not denying our free will.” I think, though, that your assumption of free will in this passage is just that–an assumption. Maybe it would help if you explained what you mean by free will and how that could fit with my interpretation here. I was pointing out that Paul is cautioning against believers adopting the false notion that they are desiring or accomplishing those acts apart from God’s working in them to do either one of those things. As Augustine so many times quotes: “What do you have that you have not received?” (I Cor. 4:7) Namely, the desire and the action. Holy Spirit empowerment.

Free will? Looks like God’s will working through an agent. A tool in the master’s hands, if you will. What more can be said from this passage?*

 

[decreasing]

So, ebcat, you’re saying that God laid out good works for all those whom he saved but that they can choose to thwart God’s will by not walking in those good works that were ordained by God specifically for them? Which god are you referring to? Is it the God that Nebuchadnezzar spoke of in Daniel 4:

At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
(Dan 4:34-35 ESV)

If it is then you must’ve misunderstood the power of the one true God who cannot be resisted or thwarted in anything that He purposes to do. We are accounted as nothing before Him and He does whatever He pleases among us without the least chance of us denying Him His desire.

Just sayin…

 

[decreasing]

Oh, and ebcat?

My highlighted copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is packed away at the moment, but I’ll get back to you with some quotations that you have apparently overlooked in regards to the RCC’s teachings regarding the involvement of works in salvation.

In fact, listen to the answer Tim Staples gave the former protestant caller in regards to how sin is to be expiated and how rigorous the confession must be apart from the official work of confession to a priest. This shows an absence of grace and an abundance of works. I guess Tim Staples is not an official teacher with any real authority, but he is certainly promoted that way.

And this concept of works mingled into the salvation of God’s people is absent from this passage in Philippians; although, like I said, the concept is certainly assumed by the priests and others whom I have spoken with about it. Do you disagree with those ordained teachers?

 

[ebcat]

So, ebcat, you’re saying that God laid out good works for all those whom he saved but that they can choose to thwart God’s will by not walking in those good works that were ordained by God specifically for them? Which god are you referring to? Is it the God that Nebuchadnezzar spoke of in Daniel 4

If it is then you must’ve misunderstood the power of the one true God who cannot be resisted or thwarted in anything that He purposes to do. We are accounted as nothing before Him and He does whatever He pleases among us without the least chance of us denying Him His desire.

Just sayin…

I’m saying that God has laid out good works for *everybody *and that *everybody *has free will to walk in those good works or not. When you say “those whom He saved” I am assuming you mean if you have “accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior”. Well that is an entire different conversation and there have been many threads discussing the “born again” debate. There are also some tracts on this website that discuss the issue. Christ died for everybody and desires all people to come to know Him. The Bible maintains that there is a sense in which Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as “the Savior of the world,” and 1 John 2:2 states that Christ “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” 1 Timothy 4:10 describes God as “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” These passages, as well as the official teaching of the Church, [See Ott, 188f], require the Catholic to affirm that Christ died to atone for all men. Aquinas stated, “Christ’s passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2, ‘He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.’” [ST III:48:2].

You say that God’s grace can not be resisted or you can’t resist the works he has laid out…

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors

Matthew 23:37-38 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate

Sirach 15:11-20 Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man.
Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him.
When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man’s every deed.No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies.

"Calvinists teach that when God gives a person the grace that enables him to come to salvation, the person always responds and never rejects this grace. For this reason many have called this the doctrine of irresistible grace.This designation has the drawback of making it sound as though God forces people against their will to come to him.This is the principal issue between Thomists and Molinists. [Some Molinists, such as Bellarmine and Suarez, almost have been Thomists. They agreed with almost all that Thomism says, such as its affirmation of unconditional election, but they resisted the idea that grace is intrinsically efficacious]. Thomists claim this enabling grace is intrinsically efficacious; by its very nature, because of the kind of grace it is, it always produces the effect of salvation. Molinists claim God’s enabling grace is only sufficient and is made efficacious by man’s free choice rather than by the nature of the grace itself. For this reason Molinists say that enabling grace is extrinsically efficacious rather than intrinsically efficacious. [One should note Thomists do believe in free will, although not the sort Molinists believe in. They claim God’s grace establishes what will be freely chosen, but in a way that does not disturb the will’s freedom. Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.].

A Catholic can agree with the idea that enabling grace is intrinsically efficacious and, consequently, that all who receive this grace will repent and come to God. Aquinas taught, “God’s intention cannot fail … Hence if God intends, while moving it, that the one whose heart he moves should attain to grace, he will infallibly attain to it, according to John 6:45, ‘Everyone that has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.’” [ST I:II:112:3.]. Catholics must say that, while God may give efficacious grace only to some, he gives sufficient grace to all. This is presupposed by the fact that he intended the atonement to be sufficient for all. Vatican II stated, “ince Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate calling of man is in fact one and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.” [Gaudium et Spes 22; “being associated with this paschal mystery” means being saved]." This is from Jimmy Akin’s A Tiptoe Through Tulip. I gotta give credit where credit is due.

 

[ebcat]

My highlighted copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is packed away at the moment, but I’ll get back to you with some quotations that you have apparently overlooked in regards to the RCC’s teachings regarding the involvement of works in salvation.

In fact, listen to the answer Tim Staples gave the former protestant caller in regards to how sin is to be expiated and how rigorous the confession must be apart from the official work of confession to a priest. This shows an absence of grace and an abundance of works. I guess Tim Staples is not an official teacher with any real authority, but he is certainly promoted that way.

And this concept of works mingled into the salvation of God’s people is absent from this passage in Philippians; although, like I said, the concept is certainly assumed by the priests and others whom I have spoken with about it. Do you disagree with those ordained teachers?

I hope we are not going back and forth on our respective definitions of “works”. When a Catholic says works, they are or should be, referring to good deeds, acts of charity, kindness and love. Forgive me if I misunderstand the quoted text above, but when you say works, are you referring to the sacraments? If you are, then that is again, lol, a different conversation. There have been many threads on the various sacraments and there are tracts on catholic.com that discuss the sacraments.

I don’t think I misunderstand the importance of works (acts of charity and love) in salvation. Just because you say that “this concept of works mingled into the salvation of God’s people is absent from this passage in Philippians” doesn’t mean its absent from the Bible.Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong. We, humans do nothing good, loving, charitable, kind, etc. All of these things have been given to us by God, undeserved by us, just like the good works laid out for us, which are included in God’s grace. All the good actions we perform are not even ours, they were given, we just said yes to doing them. We have to cooperate with all of these gifts, we have to accept them. But that is what free will is, we can say no and deny these things. Works are essential to the journey of eternal salvation. When we do good works though, be should glorify God becuase they were His to begin with.

I can’t comment on your reference to Tim Staples because I have not heard the broadcast, or don’t remember it. Maybe you should call in and ask a question?

 

[decreasing]

I plan to call and ask a question, and I would have if I hadn’t been so close to my job.

As for the rest of your comments, you’ll have to give me some time to sort through all of them in order to answer the ones related to the topic at hand. You sure do have a tendency to get off topic. Isn’t there some rule against that? I see why…

 

[Pax]

So, ebcat, you’re saying that God laid out good works for all those whom he saved but that they can choose to thwart God’s will by not walking in those good works that were ordained by God specifically for them? Which god are you referring to? Is it the God that Nebuchadnezzar spoke of in Daniel 4:

If it is then you must’ve misunderstood the power of the one true God who cannot be resisted or thwarted in anything that He purposes to do. We are accounted as nothing before Him and He does whatever He pleases among us without the least chance of us denying Him His desire.

Just sayin…

decreasing in Christ,

You’ve set up a false dilemma and vastly oversimplified the interplay of man’s free will in God’s plan of salvation. You are attempting to pit the free will of man against the will of God in such a way that we wind up looking at a “contest of wills.” Scripture frequently blows this notion apart. I will give you a couple quotes from the many in scripture that will demonstrate what I mean.

In Acts 17:30 it says:

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,

Clearly God’s command, which is his will expressed in the strongest form, says that all men everywhere are to repent. Needless to say, not all men repent.

In Acts 7:51 it says:

You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Clearly, God’s will for those spoken to is being resisted.

And in Hebrews 3:7-9 we read this:

Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years.

Clearly, people can harden their hearts in rebellion against God.

This is not some sort of contest or thumb war of wills where God somehow is overcome by man. Instead, God created man with free will in his own image and likeness. Free will is an important part of what makes us human. It is God’s will that man has free will. The interplay of man’s free will with that of God’s will is certainly not fully understood by man, but it is clear that God allows us to freely choose between Him and ourselves. God’s grace is favor and gift. God’s grace and love do not force us to do anything. Instead, God’s grace is what fully “enables” broken man to actually do God’s will.

All of this is what plays into the meaning of Philippians 2:12-13. Your explanation of the passage is partially correct. God’s grace is the great enabler and it is through grace that God is at work in us, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. We are involved by way of our free will, but because of grace all of the glory goes to God. Without God’s grace we are lost. If we reject God’s grace we are also lost. We are not inert lumps of stone when it comes to salvation. God’s permissive will allows man’s free will to operate within the divine plan and God thus preserves our humanity. The interplay of all of this is not easily appreciated, but it in no way equates to works salvation.

No offense, but I found your analysis of Philippians to be driven by doctrine as opposed to letting the scripture explain itself. The meaning, as I’ve attempted to explain, becomes more readily apparent when we continue reading verses 14 through 16 which say:

Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Please notice that the believer can grumble and question but is warned not to do so. All things are to be done by the believer without grumbling or questioning, so that the believer may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish…holding fast the word of life. Please note that these are all things that the believer does or does not do. God’s grace is there to be accepted or possibly rejected. Paul even indicates that he is exhorting the believers this way so that in the day of Christ(i.e. judgment day), that he can be proud that he did not run in vain. What Paul is saying is that if they do not do what he is talking about, then all that he did in preaching and teaching them would be in vain. If that preaching of the gospel is in vain, then those individuals would not benefit from the gospel and they would not be saved.

Just remember this. The wages of sin is death**[that’s what we do], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord[that’s what God does]**. God saves us, we do not save ourselves.

I hope this helps.

 

[Ace_of_Spades]

If there isn’t any free will then there isn’t any point in Saint Paul writing letters to automatons. Is there?
When Saint Paul says ‘continue to do as I tell you’ verse 12 if one is not free to either follow his advice or not there is little if any point in his advice. He might as well be talking to a manikin.