Philosopher Gary Steiner on Veganism

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spencelo said:
guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/07/cows-best-friends

“Who would think that beneath that calm exterior there is a boiling mass of emotions? I’m not talking about Wimbledon champions here, but cows. Yes, cows; those creatures that we eat, and take milk from, but rarely think about. According to new research by scientists at Northampton University, cows have “best friends” and get stressed when separated.”

dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2011124/Cows-best-friends-stressed-separated.html
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You had just proven my point.
The thing is, as many have belabored in your other threads before, animals and humans are different. For us to apply the idea of anthropomorphism to animals would be pointless.
 
Crescentinus said:
You had just proven my point.
The thing is, as many have belabored in your other threads before, animals and humans are different. For us to apply the idea of anthropomorphism to animals would be pointless.
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How did I prove any point of yours? I merely provided support for the proposition that cows also have rich emotional lives, something you want deny at every turn regardless of the evidence. Can you explain how providing support for my claim somehow equates to “proving” your point? You have a very odd understanding of “proof.”
 
spencelo said:
How did I prove any point of yours? I merely provided support for the proposition that cows also have rich emotional lives, something you want deny at every turn regardless of the evidence. Can you explain how providing support for my claim somehow equates to “proving” your point? You have a very odd understanding of “proof.”
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You had proven my point that you equate animals with people.
Yes, certain animals are more emotional than others. But that does not mean that they are equal to human beings.
George Stegmeir said it best that most people nowadays tend to have more concern for animals than their fellow human beings. Do you want me to bring you to what he had said?
 
Crescentinus said:
You had proven my point that you equate animals with people. Yes, certain animals are more emotional than others. But that does not mean that they are equal to human beings.

This is a very simplistic and misleading statement of what I believe. I never said animals are equal to people. Period. Rather, I maintain that animals and humans are very similar in many **relevant **respects, which is perfectly true. Do you deny that animals have rich emotional lives and experiences?
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spencelo said:
This is a very simplistic and misleading statement of what I believe. I never said animals are equal to people. Period. Rather, I maintain that animals and humans are very similar in many **relevant **respects, which is perfectly true. Do you deny that animals have rich emotional lives and experiences?
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I do not deny that at the slightest. However, I do object to the idea of anthropomorphism.
 
Crescentinus said:
I do not deny that at the slightest. However, I do object to the idea of anthropomorphism.
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Okay. Can you substantiate your charge that by providing those links I somehow “proved” your point that I’m guilty of anthropomorphism? More specifically, that I “equate” animals with people?
 
spencelo said:
This is worth reading: nytimes.com/2009/11/22/opinion/22steiner.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&th&emc=th&adxnnlx=1258902861-gy9OfjqYckiXRzfVUz3iFw

Follow-up podcast commentary: abolitionistapproach.com/commentary-discussion-with-professor-gary-steiner/
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Spence,

You gotta wonder. People are intelligent and you and this guy Steiner want us to abandon the use of animals for protien. I started to thinking…

You know lions have no respect for humans…they just see us as another source of protien…Sigfried and Roy can tell you that…

Monkeys eat fruit and yet a monkey mauled the face of a woman and tore it right off…

Bears will maul you if you get in their way in a park and you are told not to feed them you know…

So with all these animals looking at me and thinking I am breakfast lunch and dinner I am not so sure that all the humans are going to jump on board and say…hey let’s stop eating bambi…

I really like deer meat…don’t eat it all the time…I would love to know what Bear taste likes. I have eaten alligator, snake, rabbit…and someday hope to make a turducken…

I believe we should respect our animals…and of course if you have pets treat them well…and if you must eat meat…eat it sparingly…but to crusade as this guy is doing and you are proposing…well good luck…my priest is Vegan and when you ask him why…he says…

So that there will be more food in the world for others…that is about it…I have made Vegan dishes for him when we have pot lucks…

I have tried to be Vegan…it is really hard to do…I do better with being Vegetarian and doing the Indian Cuisine…try this…

Ghee…teaspoon Coriander, teaspoon of Cumin seeds, teaspoon turmeric, teaspoon Cardamon…two jalapenos, salt to taste, then throw in half a head of Cauliflower chopped, peas, can of garbanzo, a couple of chopped potatoes…steam for 5 minutes and then add 4 tomatoes and some Okra…then 1/2 cup yogurt…and then fresh Cilantro…wow is this good over rice…

it is really good with a side of fried chicken too…
 
CopticChristian said:
You know lions have no respect for humans…they just see us as another source of protien…Sigfried and Roy can tell you that…

Monkeys eat fruit and yet a monkey mauled the face of a woman and tore it right off…

Bears will maul you if you get in their way in a park and you are told not to feed them you know…

So with all these animals looking at me and thinking I am breakfast lunch and dinner I am not so sure that all the humans are going to jump on board and say…hey let’s stop eating bambi…
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This is a very odd objection against veganism. Why should the behavior of nonhuman animals govern how we should act towards them?
 
spencelo said:
This is a very odd objection against veganism. Why should the behavior of nonhuman animals govern how we should act towards them?
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Spence,

If you want to portray animals as humans then you have to look at both sides of the fence.
 
spencelo said:
How did I prove any point of yours? I merely provided support for the proposition that cows also have rich emotional lives, something you want deny at every turn regardless of the evidence. Can you explain how providing support for my claim somehow equates to “proving” your point? You have a very odd understanding of “proof.”
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If cows have a rich emotional life, then my emotional life must be off the scale!

So cows appreciate art do they? They have spiritual lives? They sacrifice their best years in acts of sacrifice and charity for others? Cows have close circles of friends, and spend much time talking and sharing? They look after their parents? They invite friends and relations to Thanksgiving, bar mitzvahs, and weddings? Cows visit sick relatives in hospital? They empathize with unwed cows and provide them emotional support?

My God, I have under-estimated cows!:eek:

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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
triumphguy said:
If cows have a rich emotional life, then my emotional life must be off the scale!

So cows appreciate art do they? They have spiritual lives? They sacrifice their best years in acts of sacrifice and charity for others? Cows have close circles of friends, and spend much time talking and sharing? They look after their parents? They invite friends and relations to Thanksgiving, bar mitzvahs, and weddings? Cows visit sick relatives in hospital? They empathize with unwed cows and provide them emotional support?
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“When they are separated from their families, friends, or human companions, ***cows grieve over the loss. ***Researchers report that cows become visibly distressed after even a brief separation from a loved one.”

“Cows are especially ***dedicated to their young ***and the ***bond formed ***between a mother and her calf remains long after the baby has grown to adulthood. Separation causes them tremendous stress and agitation. If mother and calf are separated by a fence, the mother will wait for her calf, even through harsh conditions like intense heat or cold weather, hunger and thirst.”

"According to Purdue’s findings, it doesn’t take much for the cows to feel badly – they reacted poorly to even a simple slap on the rump meant to keep them moving***. Cows don’t forget being hurt and seem to hold grudges not only against other cows, but also against people who have hurt them or their family members.*** "

“Cows can communicate with each other by “mooing” frequently. This helps them keep in contact, especially when it is dark. Cattle also communicate through a wide variety of physical movements and facial expressions.”

“Cattle will look out for the old and weak members of the herd. When dairy cows return to be milked, a leader is selected to guide the way”

“Cows living in herds will co-operate to protect all their young.”

gan.ca/animals/cows.en.html

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fblog%2Fanimal-emotions&ei=0jRlUJeJC-XC0QHa74HwDg&usg=AFQjCNGd-jvP1irhXp-vh-F5xQ23841bgA

“Cows are sentient mammals who are very intelligent. They worry over what they don’t understand and have been shown to experience “eureka” moments when they solve a puzzle such as how to open a particularly difficult gate. Cows communicate by staring and it’s likely we don’t understand their very subtle ways of communicating. They also form close and enduring relationships with family members and friends and don’t like to have their families and social networks disrupted, nor do they like to be subjected to the reprehensible conditions to which they are exposed during their transport to the factory farm (or CAFOs, concentrated animal feeding operations) and their short stay at these filthy and inhumane facilities. They also suffer not only their pains but the pains of other cows who are their short-term roommates on the way to one’s plate. Because cows are sentient one should really ask, “Who’s for dinner?” not “What’s for dinner?” if an animal is involved. Who we eat is a serious moral question.”

psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201012/dead-cow-walking-0
 
spencelo said:
“When they are separated from their families, friends, or human companions, ***cows grieve over the loss. ***Researchers report that cows become visibly distressed after even a brief separation from a loved one.”

“Cows are especially ***dedicated to their young ***and the ***bond formed ***between a mother and her calf remains long after the baby has grown to adulthood. Separation causes them tremendous stress and agitation. If mother and calf are separated by a fence, the mother will wait for her calf, even through harsh conditions like intense heat or cold weather, hunger and thirst.”

"According to Purdue’s findings, it doesn’t take much for the cows to feel badly – they reacted poorly to even a simple slap on the rump meant to keep them moving***. Cows don’t forget being hurt and seem to hold grudges not only against other cows, but also against people who have hurt them or their family members.*** "

“Cows can communicate with each other by “mooing” frequently. This helps them keep in contact, especially when it is dark. Cattle also communicate through a wide variety of physical movements and facial expressions.”

“Cattle will look out for the old and weak members of the herd. When dairy cows return to be milked, a leader is selected to guide the way”

“Cows living in herds will co-operate to protect all their young.”

gan.ca/animals/cows.en.html

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fblog%2Fanimal-emotions&ei=0jRlUJeJC-XC0QHa74HwDg&usg=AFQjCNGd-jvP1irhXp-vh-F5xQ23841bgA

“Cows are sentient mammals who are very intelligent. They worry over what they don’t understand and have been shown to experience “eureka” moments when they solve a puzzle such as how to open a particularly difficult gate. Cows communicate by staring and it’s likely we don’t understand their very subtle ways of communicating. They also form close and enduring relationships with family members and friends and don’t like to have their families and social networks disrupted, nor do they like to be subjected to the reprehensible conditions to which they are exposed during their transport to the factory farm (or CAFOs, concentrated animal feeding operations) and their short stay at these filthy and inhumane facilities. They also suffer not only their pains but the pains of other cows who are their short-term roommates on the way to one’s plate. Because cows are sentient one should really ask, “Who’s for dinner?” not “What’s for dinner?” if an animal is involved. Who we eat is a serious moral question.”

psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201012/dead-cow-walking-0
Click to expand...
BULL!!!
 
spencelo said:
This is a very simplistic and misleading statement of what I believe. I never said animals are equal to people. Period. Rather, I maintain that animals and humans are very similar in many **relevant **respects, which is perfectly true. Do you deny that animals have rich emotional lives and experiences?
Click to expand...
I deny it!
 
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