Philosopher Gary Steiner on Veganism

[spencelo]

You don’t offer facts, you offer pseudoscience. No one knows how cows feel.

The charge of pseudoscience is easy to assert, but can you defend it? Are you even willing to?

“Samuel Gosling, a biologist at the University of Texas at Austin, said dogs have proven to be quite emotionally complex. He said there are four dimensions of canine personality: sociability, affection, emotional stability and competence, a word used to represent obedience and intelligence combined.”

animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030811/emotions.html

"An international group of prominent scientists has signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness in which they are proclaiming their support for the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are — a list of animals that includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus. "

io9.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us

“Now there is a growing weight of evidence to suggest animal minds probably do house emotions quite similar to our own.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9828618

ethologicalethics.org/pdf/3.pdf

 

[spencelo]

Just as soon as you find the cow that complains about its life.

“Based on ***award-winning scientist ***Marc Bekoff’s years studying social communication in a wide range of species, this important book shows that animals have rich emotional lives.”

“Bekoff, professor emeritus of biology at the University of Colorado, pores over decades of animal research-behavioral, neurochemical, psychological and environmental-to answer that question, compelling readers to accept both the existence and significance of animal emotions. Seated in the most primitive structures of the brain (pleasure receptors, for example, are biologically correlative in all mammals), emotions have a long evolutionary history. ***Indeed, as vertebrates became more complex, they developed ever more complex emotional and social lives, ***“setting rules” that permit group living-a far better survival strategy than going solo.”

belladogmagazine.com/book-reviews/266-emotional-lives-of-animals

 

[spencelo]

Just as soon as you find the cow that complains about its life.

Serious question: if you were convinced that animals do have rich emotional lives, would that significantly change things for you? Would you stop consuming animal products? I invite you to provide an honest, non-dismissive answer.

 

[CopticChristian]

The charge of pseudoscience is easy to assert, but can you defend it? Are you even willing to?

“Samuel Gosling, a biologist at the University of Texas at Austin, said dogs have proven to be quite emotionally complex. He said there are four dimensions of canine personality: sociability, affection, emotional stability and competence, a word used to represent obedience and intelligence combined.”

animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030811/emotions.html

"An international group of prominent scientists has signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness in which they are proclaiming their support for the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are — a list of animals that includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus. "

io9.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us

“Now there is a growing weight of evidence to suggest animal minds probably do house emotions quite similar to our own.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9828618

ethologicalethics.org/pdf/3.pdf

Spence,

Alfred Korzybski, father of General Semantics, says that humans can do something that animals and plants can not do…“bind time”…in other words take information from the past and build on it…that is how we get libraries, computers, advancement in science and thought…no animal does this.

L. Michael Hall, PhD co-founder of Neurosemantics says that humans, not animals, can self reflective think…in other words we can think about our thinking and do this on and on…animals cannot.

Animals at best have an adolescent mind and when those that are pro-gay say…hey just look at homosexuality in the animal kingdom…look again…it is just adolescence that has not grown up…

 

[spencelo]

Spence,

Alfred Korzybski, father of General Semantics, says that humans can do something that animals and plants can not do…“bind time”…in other words take information from the past and build on it…that is how we get libraries, computers, advancement in science and thought…no animal does this.

L. Michael Hall, PhD co-founder of Neurosemantics says that humans, not animals, can self reflective think…in other words we can think about our thinking and do this on and on…animals cannot.

Animals at best have an adolescent mind and when those that are pro-gay say…hey just look at homosexuality in the animal kingdom…look again…it is just adolescence that has not grown up…

Animal metacognition:

sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090914172644.htm

livescience.com/5712-animals-thinking-research-suggests.html

buffalo.edu/news/13292

cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613%2809%2900148-X

 

[triumphguy]

I note that although I offer up facts, you respond with a lack of seriousness. Emotional maturity? How ironic.

Opinions.

Yes, hard to believe? I welcome any links of scientific studies that would disprove those factual assertions.

The charge of pseudoscience is easy to assert, but can you defend it? Are you even willing to?

“Samuel Gosling, a biologist at the University of Texas at Austin, said dogs have proven to be quite emotionally complex. He said there are four dimensions of canine personality: sociability, affection, emotional stability and competence, a word used to represent obedience and intelligence combined.”

animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030811/emotions.html

"An international group of prominent scientists has signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness in which they are proclaiming their support for the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are — a list of animals that includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus. "

io9.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us

“Now there is a growing weight of evidence to suggest animal minds probably do house emotions quite similar to our own.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9828618

ethologicalethics.org/pdf/3.pdf

Dogs, not cows.

“Based on ***award-winning scientist ***Marc Bekoff’s years studying social communication in a wide range of species, this important book shows that animals have rich emotional lives.”

“Bekoff, professor emeritus of biology at the University of Colorado, pores over decades of animal research-behavioral, neurochemical, psychological and environmental-to answer that question, compelling readers to accept both the existence and significance of animal emotions. Seated in the most primitive structures of the brain (pleasure receptors, for example, are biologically correlative in all mammals), emotions have a long evolutionary history. ***Indeed, as vertebrates became more complex, they developed ever more complex emotional and social lives, ***“setting rules” that permit group living-a far better survival strategy than going solo.”

belladogmagazine.com/book-reviews/266-emotional-lives-of-animals

And logical positivists will use the same research to prove that humans do not have souls, and they are no different from the animal kingdom, and that we are just rather unusual bipeds crawling across the face of the earth in a fruitless and ultimately futile search for meaning; and so abortion, euthanasia and eugenics are valid options when merited by the scientists and politicians - for the good of society of course.

No thanks!

Serious question: if you were convinced that animals do have rich emotional lives, would that significantly change things for you? Would you stop consuming animal products? I invite you to provide an honest, non-dismissive answer.

We don’t eat the animals that have rich emotional lives.

We don’t eat:

• wolves
• lions
• hyenas
• dolphins
• monkeys
• great apes for instance

All predators by the way.

We eat the others.

How are you on questions of abortion, and euthanasia for old people by the way?

I hear that fetuses (|unborn babies to us) have rich emotional lives too, even before they are born. As do the aged even in their dotage.

 

[pete_29]

Serious question: if you were convinced that animals do have rich emotional lives, would that significantly change things for you? Would you stop consuming animal products? I invite you to provide an honest, non-dismissive answer.

No!

 

[pete_29]

The charge of pseudoscience is easy to assert, but can you defend it? Are you even willing to?

“Samuel Gosling, a biologist at the University of Texas at Austin, said dogs have proven to be quite emotionally complex. He said there are four dimensions of canine personality: sociability, affection, emotional stability and competence, a word used to represent obedience and intelligence combined.”

animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030811/emotions.html

"An international group of prominent scientists has signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness in which they are proclaiming their support for the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are — a list of animals that includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus. "

io9.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us

“Now there is a growing weight of evidence to suggest animal minds probably do house emotions quite similar to our own.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9828618

ethologicalethics.org/pdf/3.pdf

Gosling’s opinion

 

[pete_29]

“Based on ***award-winning scientist ***Marc Bekoff’s years studying social communication in a wide range of species, this important book shows that animals have rich emotional lives.”

“Bekoff, professor emeritus of biology at the University of Colorado, pores over decades of animal research-behavioral, neurochemical, psychological and environmental-to answer that question, compelling readers to accept both the existence and significance of animal emotions. Seated in the most primitive structures of the brain (pleasure receptors, for example, are biologically correlative in all mammals), emotions have a long evolutionary history. ***Indeed, as vertebrates became more complex, they developed ever more complex emotional and social lives, ***“setting rules” that permit group living-a far better survival strategy than going solo.”

belladogmagazine.com/book-reviews/266-emotional-lives-of-animals

Bekoff’s opinion. I will accept the views of someone like Ridgerunner, who has practical experience of dealing with animals for years over that of some scientist that deals in theory and probably has never seen an animal outside the lab in his or her life. Get out of Brooklyn, get to the country, and see what animals are really like. It may be educational.

 

[april32010]

Bekoff’s opinion. I will accept the views of someone like Ridgerunner, who has practical experience of dealing with animals for years over that of some scientist that deals in theory and probably has never seen an animal outside the lab in his or her life. Get out of Brooklyn, get to the country, and see what animals are really like. It may be educational.

actually,if he would take a walk at 3:00 a.m. ,he would see foxs ,coons,possums,and owls preying on rats and such.wild critters have been repopulating urban areas for a while now.but of course animals are theory to a lot of folks.

 

[Cristiano]

actually,if he would take a walk at 3:00 a.m. ,he would see foxs ,coons,possums,and owls preying on rats and such.wild critters have been repopulating urban areas for a while now.but of course animals are theory to a lot of folks.

He would also see my wife letting the dogs out in the backyard while I am snoring away. They feel like they have not been heard if someone does not let them out for their needs.

 

[CopticChristian]

Animal metacognition:

sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090914172644.htm

livescience.com/5712-animals-thinking-research-suggests.html

buffalo.edu/news/13292

cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613%2809%2900148-X

Spence,

Would you not expect to see some elements of metacognition in some but not all animals. It is not conclusive as you can see by the statements found within the body of or at the end of each of your links.

Therefore, Smith says, “it is a crucial goal of comparative psychology to establish firmly whether animals share humans’ metacognitive capacity. If they do, it could bear on their consciousness and self-awareness, too.”

Further research is needed to tease out any self-awareness in animals, Smith said

“At present,” he says, “members of South-American monkey species or New World monkeys have not shown the same robust capacities for uncertainty monitoring, a possible species difference that has intriguing implications regarding the emergence of reflective mind in monkeys, apes and humans.”

There is growing evidence that animals share functional parallels with humans conscious metacognition, although the field has not confirmed full experiential parallels and this remains an open question.

This still does not answer the question of “time binding”…animals cannot and have not done this…

Love your animals, respect your animals, and if you choose to eat them do it with love and respect.

 

[ValPal]

I used to be a hardcore vegan, mainly for health purposes. The long and short of it is the human body is more similar to an herbivore than even an omnivore, and better health is obtained with eating a low-meat diet. I now basically limit my meat intact to poultry and seafood.

There is most definitely a radical element associated with veganism. However, it would be improper to throw out the baby with the bathwater on this one. Just because there are radicals doesn’t mean that veganism has no benefits and should be dismissed. Just try to mug a Shaolin monk and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[Crescentinus]

Bekoff’s opinion. I will accept the views of someone like Ridgerunner, who has practical experience of dealing with animals for years over that of some scientist that deals in theory and probably has never seen an animal outside the lab in his or her life. Get out of Brooklyn, get to the country, and see what animals are really like. It may be educational.

You have said it better than what I try to.