Philosophy: Genuine tragedies

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About Marx “turning Hegel on his head”: Do you mean by basing the dialectic on material, economic forces rather than spiritual? If that is what is meant, I would ask Vaclav in what way Marx was “very much correct”? Is that what you understood by “turning Hegel on his head,” or did you have something else in mind?
 
About Marx “turning Hegel on his head”: Do you mean by basing the dialectic on material, economic forces rather than spiritual? If that is what is meant, I would ask Vaclav in what way Marx was “very much correct”? Is that what you understood by “turning Hegel on his head,” or did you have something else in mind?
The quote by Marx is better translated as “stood Hegel on his head” and essentially you are correct, but it was not that Marx viewed it as necessarily economic, but materialistic, nor was Hegel “spiritual” per se but idealistic.

In other words, Marx believed that he took Hegel’s idealistic philisophical system of history and made it into something useful. I agree. Hegel had a great influence on later philosophy, but his system, as he left it, was useless on its own.
 
The quote by Marx is better translated as “stood Hegel on his head” and essentially you are correct, but it was not that Marx viewed it as necessarily economic, but materialistic, nor was Hegel “spiritual” per se but idealistic.

In other words, Marx believed that he took Hegel’s idealistic philisophical system of history and made it into something useful. I agree. Hegel had a great influence on later philosophy, but his system, as he left it, was useless on its own.
Okay, I understand now. I agree that Hegel’s system (indeed, the entire idea of the historical dialectic, in my view) is more or less useless. Marx’s dialectic is more “useful,” but his materialism seems to limit its use drastically. He accounts for “religion” as such in history, but not the spiritual reality BEHIND “religion.” To me, this means his diagnosis of historical forces leaves out precisely the most important force of all–indeed, this most important force of all CANNOT make its way into Marx’s system. It’s as if someone analyzed the reasons for marriage, but had to ignore “love” because his philosophy excluded the idea of love to begin with.
 
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Truthstalker:
The remark about Ophelia. Sorry if this caused confusion.
All is forgiven. 🙂
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Truthstalker:
I haven’t read Hamlet in many years.
Me neither. :blushing: Probably not since my Omelette years in highschool.

I think I am going to take some time off from CAF. Folks in the Philosophy threads have given me so many links and so many things to think about that I have to catch up on my reading.

These Philosophy threads are superb. Simply superb! And I think that, rather than put them under Apologetics, I think they should have their own forum under a superforum called Strange Humour. :rotfl: But that’s another thread.
 
Well, okay, you can take some time off. See you in about 90 minutes?
 
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Vaclav:
…I got long-winded there.
Not at all.
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Vaclav:
That is an excellent point and one I’m sure you know the answer to.
Busted. :blushing:
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Vaclav:
It might be easier to answer what wasn’t duplicity in Hamlet!
Oh I thought you were going to explain how Hamlet, the protagonist, was duplicitous. I can see how he was double-minded and therefore indecisive. But I am not following you if you say that he was duplicitous. Are you saying that he was duplicitous, hiding behind his double-mindedness?
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Vaclav:
I would not say that it furthers a good. I might have to think on that actually.
OK.
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Vaclav:
What do you think?
Ah! Asked you first. 😛
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Vaclav:
In that sense Marx was very much correct.
For agreeing with you? 😃 Thank you for the synopsis of Hegel.
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Vaclav:
How would I apply Hegel and Marx to Hamlet and R & J? I wouldn’t apply Hegel.
Understood.
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Vaclav:
A Marxist view of Hamlet?
:extrahappy:
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Vaclav:
Denmark is rotten because the very system is rotten. It is led by a ruling class of elites who quite clearly have no values or morals and are quite clearly much more concerned with self-interest than the people over which they rule.

Hamlet attempts to reform many of the institutions of the broken system, but it is far too overwhelming and he is far too indecisive and he has no real knowledge from where true reform and proper revolution should come (the proletariat). Therefore he is doomed to failure and tragedy.

Polonius would be your capitalist, but Claudius would represent the true intelligent ruling class interests behind the useful idiot (Polonius).
Nice moves. Well done. Thank you. 👍
 
The quote by Marx is better translated as “stood Hegel on his head” and essentially you are correct, but it was not that Marx viewed it as necessarily economic, but materialistic, nor was Hegel “spiritual” per se but idealistic.

In other words, Marx believed that he took Hegel’s idealistic philisophical system of history and made it into something useful. I agree. Hegel had a great influence on later philosophy, but his system, as he left it, was useless on its own.
👍 Moreover, whether or not Hegel could stand on his own, let alone stand on his head, was not the issue. Folks get some things wrong or incomplete or inappropriate to their time. Then other folks come along and respond to them in a way which is less wrong or less incomplete or less inappropriate to their time.

Marx could stand on one leg in a wobbly sort of way without falling over. But knowing what he was responding to makes him less wobbly for us in our understanding of his thoughts.
 
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cpayne:
Okay, I understand now. I agree that Hegel’s system (indeed, the entire idea of the historical dialectic, in my view) is more or less useless.
Oh, now I understand. You are talking about pragmatic. I thought you were saying that gaining insights was useless.
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cpayne:
Marx’s dialectic is more “useful,” but his materialism seems to limit its use drastically.
Yes. Because it lacks insights into the non-material.
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cpayne:
He accounts for “religion” as such in history, but not the spiritual reality BEHIND “religion.”
He attempts to rewrite the Real Presence. Why? Because he at least was intelligent enough to realize that the Social Gospel had to be connected to the Real Presence. Since the Real Presence was problematic for his theories, he wrote a new one.
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cpayne:
To me, this means his diagnosis of historical forces leaves out precisely the most important force of all–indeed, this most important force of all CANNOT make its way into Marx’s system. It’s as if someone analyzed the reasons for marriage, but had to ignore “love” because his philosophy excluded the idea of love to begin with.
Exactly! Right on, cp! Nice moves!
 
I’ll go back to the beginning because this point seemingly was missed.

There is only one good. God alone is good. There is only one God.
And many human journeys to God. Sr Clare Fitzgerald says that we are on a journey from God to God. Many of my questions are what does that journey look like? Where are the signposts? What do the signposts say?
 
But I am not following you if you say that he was duplicitous. Are you saying that he was duplicitous, hiding behind his double-mindedness?
Not necessarily. Hamlet learned the ways of the court well, likely from his mother (we know from earlier in the play that he was not the cold-hearted warrior that his father was). He very astutely decieves Claudius, Polonius, Gertrude, and Ophelia into believing that he is mad (insane). This deception brings its own tragedy when Ophelia (who truly goes mad) commits suicide.

So Hamlet is certainly part of the web of duplicity. His intentions are more in line with his protaganist character, but he is as deeply involved as Claudius, Laertes, Gertrude, and the others.
Ah! Asked you first.
😉 Honestly, I’m not sure that there is a great realization that makes Romeo & Juliet any less of a tragedy than Hamlet. It is perhaps less complex and probably a battle between more juvenile emotions.
For agreeing with you?
Yes, Marx should count himself lucky…LOL
Nice moves. Well done. Thank you.
Thank you. I’m not sure I did it full justice. I never really liked any Marxist critiques of Hamlet. They tend to take the view that Hamlet was very weak of character and that he lacked essential Marxist qualities. On the other hand, their view of the ruling elite of Denmark is probably a good literary critique.

Note that one could also make a very Protestant critique of Hamlet (and this has been done). Notice from where Hamlet returns at the very beginning of the play - Wittenberg. There is probably no city more associated with Martin Luther and the Reformation in Germany than Wittenberg. It was at the Schlosskirche that Luther nailed his 95 Theses. The tombs of Luther and Phillip Melanchthon are here as well.

Of course a 13th century Danish Prince would have yet to experience this, but a late 16th and early 17th century playwright would know these well - especially in England, where the tensions between Protestantism and Catholicism ran high for many reasons.

So some read the play as an oppressed reformer watching the continued moral decline of Catholic hegemony. As Abi pointed to earlier, Elizabethan Britain represented a very difficult time for Catholics in the British Isles.
Yes. Because it lacks insights into the non-material.
This is partly a product of Marx’s own zeitgeist. He is often demonised today (and especially during the Cold War), but often by people who did not read his works or care to understand them.

What Marx sought to create was a scientific socialism to replace the utopian socialists that preceded him. He wanted to lay out a plan that involved the Hegelian system, but put to use in a practical way for the betterment of mankind.

Remember that most of the religion Marx knew was Judaism and especially Protestantism. The conditions he and Engels witnessed in industrial cities like Manchester (as one of Engels famous essays describes) were truly horrific. Not only was this considered acceptable, it was even defended by some of the clergymen of those Protestant Churches (especially the Anglicans in Britain).

You’ve probably read some of Dickens work, where he describes life at this time. He knew something about this as his father was often in debtors prisons and he worked in horrible conditions as a child. The Poor Laws and the workhouses were deliberately degrading to the poor (as a means of “forcing them to work”) and went so far as to separate families and children. In fairness, some Church of England officials, who ran poor and workhouses, were very kind and attempted to obtain resources in extra-legal ways. Others relished their role and bought into the Calvinist idea that the poor should be punished.

When Marx discusses exploitation and alienation, they were very real concepts of his time. When he holds some disdain for religion (though in some essays he actually has quite high praise for it) it is with some justification. I wish that he had found Catholicism, but at the same time I don’t believe he was the horrible evil that many made him and his philosophies out to be.
 
Both right and wrong, in my opinion. Let’s look historically, however:

Tsunami kills 100,000 people. Tragedy, yes. Facing off between a right and a wrong? no. Facing off between two rights? No. Tsunamis are ammoral… there was no great showdown of morality involved in this tragedy.

The children’s crusade. Tragedy? yes. Facing off between right and wrong? DEFINATELY. A bunch of children were kidnapped and lost forever after a man claiming to lead a peaceful childrens’ crusade stole them away forever. Thus there can be tragic loss when good and evil face off.

Friendly Fire in a just war. Tragedy? Yes. Good and evil fighting against each other? No. Facing off between two rights? Yes. How sad it must be if one squad came up against another and they fought with deadly force, only to realize that they were both mistaken and fighting their own brothers in arms?

So, all three are truely tragic, though all three occur in different areas of moral struggle.
I don’t think Hegel was referring to natural disasters.
 
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Vaclav:
Not necessarily. Hamlet learned the ways of the court well, likely from his mother (we know from earlier in the play that he was not the cold-hearted warrior that his father was). He very astutely decieves Claudius, Polonius, Gertrude, and Ophelia into believing that he is mad (insane). This deception brings its own tragedy when Ophelia (who truly goes mad) commits suicide.
Ah! Vaclav! Good catch.
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Vaclav:
So Hamlet is certainly part of the web of duplicity. His intentions are more in line with his protaganist character, but he is as deeply involved as Claudius, Laertes, Gertrude, and the others.
Yes.

Vaclav said:
😉 Honestly, I’m not sure that there is a great realization that makes Romeo & Juliet any less of a tragedy than Hamlet. It is perhaps less complex and probably a battle between more juvenile emotions.

Does the realization not take place between the heads of each family?
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Vaclav:
Thank you. I’m not sure I did it full justice. I never really liked any Marxist critiques of Hamlet. They tend to take the view that Hamlet was very weak of character and that he lacked essential Marxist qualities. On the other hand, their view of the ruling elite of Denmark is probably a good literary critique.
Yes. Which leads me to this question? Does virtue play a role in Hamlet? If so, where is virtue? The Marxian analysis implies that the protagonist Hamlet lacks Marxian virtues. Does he or any other character display other kinds of virtues?
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Vaclav:
Note that one could also make a very Protestant critique of Hamlet (and this has been done). Notice from where Hamlet returns at the very beginning of the play - Wittenberg. There is probably no city more associated with Martin Luther and the Reformation in Germany than Wittenberg. It was at the Schlosskirche that Luther nailed his 95 Theses. The tombs of Luther and Phillip Melanchthon are here as well.

Of course a 13th century Danish Prince would have yet to experience this, but a late 16th and early 17th century playwright would know these well - especially in England, where the tensions between Protestantism and Catholicism ran high for many reasons.

So some read the play as an oppressed reformer watching the continued moral decline of Catholic hegemony. As Abi pointed to earlier, Elizabethan Britain represented a very difficult time for Catholics in the British Isles.
Take us there in more depth? :bounce: Give us the Protestant critique. If it gets involved then we can think of starting a new thread. Actually, reading what you posted after this, I think Philosophy: Hamlet, the Reformation, and Marx would make an excellent thread.

Let me take care of it.
 
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