Philosophy/ Theology can endanger your soul!

[SoylentGreen]

I didn’t " spill " mine but you just have to make it shorter.

Linus2nd

That is why I posted at the very end of the argument, the abstract diagram that puts the argument forth as simply as I think possible. It’s the very last page, so I’ve reduced the argument to just one page.

I hope to, when I get the time, and motivation, try and present the argument here on this forum, as briefly as possible.

I twice ruined laptops by spilling coffee on them. But I just made fresh coffee.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

That is why I posted at the very end of the argument, the abstract diagram that puts the argument forth as simply as I think possible. It’s the very last page, so I’ve reduced the argument to just one page.

I hope to, when I get the time, and motivation, try and present the argument here on this forum, as briefly as possible.

I twice ruined laptops by spilling coffee on them. But I just made fresh coffee.

I’ll take a look but I have already stated my objections in several posts here and elsewhere.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

That is why I posted at the very end of the argument, the abstract diagram that puts the argument forth as simply as I think possible. It’s the very last page, so I’ve reduced the argument to just one page.

I hope to, when I get the time, and motivation, try and present the argument here on this forum, as briefly as possible.

I twice ruined laptops by spilling coffee on them. But I just made fresh coffee.

O.K., I looked at it. You begin with a huge assumption that cannot be proven and never will be proven. That is , your " causal principal, " your simplest of all states, which you identify as the " singularity " of space-time-mass-mind, unified and undifferentiated. Forgive me if I regard this as nothing but the product of a very active imagination. It does seem to be inspired by the theories surrounding the so called " Big Bang."

First, I must point out that your " simplest of all states " is contrary to Defined Catholic Dogma. And for other Christians, it may successfully be argued , it is also against the teaching of Scripture. Catholics at least cannot accept such an explanation of the " beginning " of the created universe of the full range of created substances, the material and the spiritual.

Secondly, you identify the beginning state of affairs as the unified but undifferentiated " singularity " of space-time-mass-mind. " Mind cannot be identified with space-time-mass, no matter how you define " mind. " Again, Catholics and Christains cannot accept this. But you are just asserting it, you cannot prove that such is the case.

Thirdly, where is God in all this ? And how do you define Him? I don’t see any argument attempting to demonstrate His existence. And none demonstrating His causality. So again, why would any Christian, Jew, or Muslim be interested in what you have so laboriously crafted?

Again, as I said in another post, you have redefined " nothing. " It is no longer the " ex nihilo " of the Bible or of Catholic Dogma, nor is it anything Thomas Aquinas would recognize. It is no longer " nothing, " it is a unified but undifferentiated " something. "

Finally, you try to pass this off as an a priori argument. But even a priori arguements must begin with undisputed facts, not speculations.

I can well see how Atheists may latch on to this, but it won’t do. It is all speculation and pretty wild at that.

Sorry, I can’t agree with your argument. Similar arguments are already out there and none of them fly.

Linus2nd

 

[fhansen]

Don’t doubt it. The one source of Truth in Faith and Morals is what the Catholic Church teaches. Anything you read or learn in Philosophy or Theology which is contrary to the teaching of the Church is false and is to be rejected.

Even in St. Thomas there are at least some things that are questionable and one in particular which is heresy if interpreted wrongly.

It has surfaced in several threads in this forum lately that some people are getting the idea that God is part of created things or that created things are part of God. This has occurred in those passages of St. Thomas ( and there are many througout his works ) where he says that created things " participate " or " share " in the existence or being of God. People are interpreting this incorrectly.

What he means is that because created beings each have existence, none possesses it perfectly. Each has only so much existence, therefore they are said to " share " in this common note or perfection. And because none of them possesses it perfectly none of them can have caused their own existence or the existence of some other being. So the source of their being must be Him who is Perfect Being, God. Which is true, but it does not mean that God gives created beings some of his existence. Rather, it means He gives them existence their own act of existence, just like he gives them every other perfection, including their matter ( if any ), and their form.

So God is not the being of any created substance and no created substance is a part of God. It is true that God is present in every atom of creation, He is fully present by His entire substance in all His creation ( and the Church teaches this ). But He is present as the cause of everything in them, as the one Who upholds their existence, as the one Who guides and directs them. He is not present so as to be a part of their existence or as a part of their substance. And while He is present in all things, He is at the same time absolutely transcendent to them.

Because people have been stumbing on this point, it really would be better if some people would not study philosophy. It is one thing not to understand something, it is quite another thing to spread the error around. That can endanger one’s own Faith and that of others.

Its a good thing to read a book or so in philosophy or theology but that doesn’t qualify one as an authority, it makes one know just enough to be really dangerous. One always has to judge the truth value of what one is reading against the constant teaching of the Church.

Linus2nd

No created thing can be God, and yet the special vocation of man is to experience His Godhood by participation in it, and the happiness this necessarily entails. This is a gift, purely a work of grace. All of creation is more than a super hi-tech construction project for God; it’s an expression or emanation of Him and His goodness. Man was made in such a way to be able to truly experience and appreciate this goodness directly. We simply cannot conceive of that which God has in store for those who love Him; He wants more for us than we could ever imagine.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

No created thing can be God, and yet the special vocation of man is to experience His Godhood by participation in it, and the happiness this necessarily entails. This is a gift, purely a work of grace. All of creation is more than a super hi-tech construction project for God; it’s an expression or emanation of Him and His goodness. Man was made in such a way to be able to truly experience and appreciate this goodness directly. We simply cannot conceive of that which God has in store for those who love Him; He wants more for us than we could ever imagine.

I agree with you but we have to be very cautious how we speak of these things. Many people are unable to distinguish between metaphor and actuality. We do not " participate " in the Godhead in any way, shape or form. And we must not say creation is an " emanation " of God. Neither of these is factual. This is metaphorical speech and should be avoided when speaking of God and His creatures.

Linus2nd

 

[Vouthon]

We do not " participate " in the Godhead in any way, shape or form. And we must not say creation is an " emanation " of God. Neither of these is factual.

Dear Linus,

Mystical union is a unity of persons not of identity. However we are admitted into the inner life of the Trinity by grace. The soul’s relation to God partakes of the movements within God. In this sense it “participates”. It is a communion of self-forgetting love.

From the Catechism:

260 The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God’s creatures into the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity

 

[fhansen]

I agree with you but we have to be very cautious how we speak of these things. Many people are unable to distinguish between metaphor and actuality. We do not " participate " in the Godhead in any way, shape or form. And we must not say creation is an " emanation " of God. Neither of these is factual. This is metaphorical speech and should be avoided when speaking of God and His creatures.

Linus2nd

Yes, I understand the error the term “emanation” might result in. But I think it’s important to emphasize that we come from no where but directly from God, we’re made in His image, and all of His creation is intimately related to Him, flowing from His goodness and love, but especially man whom He desires to have a very profound union with.

 

[Pilosopo]

“Philosophy is that with which and without which everything remains the same,” so goes a saying I’ve learned and taught early in my Philosophy classes. [Unfortunately, I cannot pull up an exact reference, though I recall it being an Italian saying.]
I guess this saying has a way of challenging philosophy to “make sense,” or to bring philosophy to bear on day to day living. Philosophy (or theology) are all tools to fostering our love for God (and people) and to serve Him (and His people). That seems to be our shared belief.

On a somewhat side note, The thought of “doctors of the Church,” came to mind. Doing a quick google search, I obtained thus:
catholic.org/saints/doctors.php

 

[Linusthe2nd]

“Philosophy is that with which and without which everything remains the same,” so goes a saying I’ve learned and taught early in my Philosophy classes. [Unfortunately, I cannot pull up an exact reference, though I recall it being an Italian saying.]
I guess this saying has a way of challenging philosophy to “make sense,” or to bring philosophy to bear on day to day living. Philosophy (or theology) are all tools to fostering our love for God (and people) and to serve Him (and His people). That seems to be our shared belief.

On a somewhat side note, The thought of “doctors of the Church,” came to mind. Doing a quick google search, I obtained thus:
catholic.org/saints/doctors.php

St. Thomas certainly can be used for spiritual reading, many others as well. At least he gives us solid meat.

Linus2nd

 

[Linux]

Don’t doubt it. The one source of Truth in Faith and Morals is what the Catholic Church teaches. Anything you read or learn in Philosophy or Theology which is contrary to the teaching of the Church is false and is to be rejected.

Even in St. Thomas there are at least some things that are questionable and one in particular which is heresy if interpreted wrongly.

It has surfaced in several threads in this forum lately that some people are getting the idea that God is part of created things or that created things are part of God. This has occurred in those passages of St. Thomas ( and there are many througout his works ) where he says that created things " participate " or " share " in the existence or being of God. People are interpreting this incorrectly.

What he means is that because created beings each have existence, none possesses it perfectly. Each has only so much existence, therefore they are said to " share " in this common note or perfection. And because none of them possesses it perfectly none of them can have caused their own existence or the existence of some other being. So the source of their being must be Him who is Perfect Being, God. Which is true, but it does not mean that God gives created beings some of his existence. Rather, it means He gives them existence their own act of existence, just like he gives them every other perfection, including their matter ( if any ), and their form.

So God is not the being of any created substance and no created substance is a part of God. It is true that God is present in every atom of creation, He is fully present by His entire substance in all His creation ( and the Church teaches this ). But He is present as the cause of everything in them, as the one Who upholds their existence, as the one Who guides and directs them. He is not present so as to be a part of their existence or as a part of their substance. And while He is present in all things, He is at the same time absolutely transcendent to them.

Because people have been stumbing on this point, it really would be better if some people would not study philosophy. It is one thing not to understand something, it is quite another thing to spread the error around. That can endanger one’s own Faith and that of others.

Its a good thing to read a book or so in philosophy or theology but that doesn’t qualify one as an authority, it makes one know just enough to be really dangerous. One always has to judge the truth value of what one is reading against the constant teaching of the Church.

Linus2nd

God gave us a brain to reason with. Telling people not to reason is not the answer. As long as error is not spread with malicious intent only an unloving God would punish such errors. Perhaps it is your inability to defend the faith rationally that is the problem.

Therefore I reject your thesis if it can be called that at all. It is fear-mongering.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

God gave us a brain to reason with. Telling people not to reason is not the answer. As long as error is not spread with malicious intent only an unloving God would punish such errors. Perhaps it is your inability to defend the faith rationally that is the problem.

Therefore I reject your thesis if it can be called that at all. It is fear-mongering.

It’s still a free country, think the Moon is made of green cheese if you like. FYI, did I tell people not to think or reason. Indeed not. I have asked them to think along with the Church and reject all error.

Linus2nd

 

[minion]

…logic and philosophy helped convince me to stay Catholic.