Photographs from 2005 Los Angeles Religious Education Conference

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Scarlet:
I think every picture I’ve ever seen of “liturgical dance” is only of women. I’ve never seen men prancing around in really bad costumes. But regardless, these people look goofy doing it because it is alien to the mass and our culture.

And one other thing. I really wonder when I see pictures like that of the Cardinal during the consecration, and knowing that he approves of all the dancing if he isn’t tired of celebrating mass. He just doesn’t strike me as somebody who really cares.

In Christ,
Scarlet
I have seen a man doing liturgical “dance”. He was in, what I can only call, a body stocking. It was disgusting.

At the time of the reading of the Gospel, he “danced” the Gospel book down the aisle. The Gospel was not carried in the Entrance Procession.

I put the word “dance” in quotes when saying liturgical “dance” becuase what they are doing is not any dance I have ever seen. It does not resemble any folk dancing of Europe which most Americans ancestors come from nor does it resemble any other folk dancing I have seen.

It does seem to look a lot like the drug induced euphoria of the hippies from the sixties. Reminds me a lot of the old movies that show the crowds at Woodstock.

It is nothing more than a bunch of prancing and hopping around.
 
The best word I can use to describe what was going on there is “cheesy.” I couldn’t imagine anyone in the “audience” actually watching this with a straight face. It looks so absurd and like such a joke.
 
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Genesis315:
The best word I can use to describe what was going on there is “cheesy.” I couldn’t imagine anyone in the “audience” actually watching this with a straight face. It looks so absurd and like such a joke.
I think the best word to use is moronic.
 
Lord, have mercy on us.

I have an idea (“Oh, no! Tantum’s got another idea!”)

For Divine Mercy Sunday (April 3), let’s see if we can get a huge group who will pray the Novena (starting Good Friday) with the intention of atonement for this and other Mass abuses, and petition for good, solid, unified, Catholic liturgy throughout the nation.
 
I wonder if Rome will comment on this event, I am sure that the word on this has reached there via the internet.

And what should we think if there is no comment ?

james
 
Tantum ergo:
Lord, have mercy on us.

I have an idea (“Oh, no! Tantum’s got another idea!”)

For Divine Mercy Sunday (April 3), let’s see if we can get a huge group who will pray the Novena (starting Good Friday) with the intention of atonement for this and other Mass abuses, and petition for good, solid, unified, Catholic liturgy throughout the nation.
Good idea Tantum. I for one will join in. Seeing pictures like this, makes me ever the more grateful for my parish and Archdiocese (Mobile). 🙂
 
i live in the l.a. archdiocese. first, to be fair to the cardinal (which truthfully is the last thing i think he deserves) these pictures are not from the 2005 congress. the original poster should clarify what his/her source is. note that each year the theme/title of the congress is projected on the backdrop. that is not this year’s theme. i think it is from a few years ago. also, this year the congress occurred during lent and (surprisingly) the vestments conformed to the season. he is in green in one of these photos. i believe that these photos were taken before the new GIRM and RS. it seems unfair to factually distort the situation.

that being said, don’t let me give the false impression that things have changed, or that it has not become worse.
When I look at those photos and see the body of christ consecrated in a wicker basket…
also in the interest of fairness, the hosts that are consecretated are not just laying in a giant basket. there are metal bowls stacked up in the basket, which are handed to the priests, deacons, and ems at communion time. they are not extremely nice metal bowls, but Jesus isn’t just falling all over the floor through the wicker either. a mass this size is only done once or twice a year. if you think they’re going to buy 40 gold ciboria and chalices in order to distribute Communion, you are dreaming. its not the vatican where this size of mass occurs daily. other bishops are in the same predicament. i doubt they have super nice vessels at the world youth day mass, etc. as long as they are reserved for the Eucharist only, other criteria of beauty, etc. become a matter of taste and culture.(note the adaptations in the GIRM)

so being one who was in attendance this year and years past, here’s a few things to take note of. in the first photo note the cross being carried by the server. it is not a crucifix. there is no crucifix present at any of the masses.(GIRM 297, 308) btw, it’s “liturgical movement” because liturgical dance is not allowed. (that’s not a joke.)

look to the right on the stage, and notice that there is a large group of bishops and/or cardinals there. every year his auxiliaries plus others from all over the world are there. he has comrades in his mischief. they seem to be all smiles, etc. in my opinion, this is a huge indication of the kind of problem and why the vatican doesn’t just jump on this. keep in mind that this event doesn’t occur in his diocese. the bishop of orange is a co-conspiritor also.

the pitchers are commonplace since the cardinal issued a statement in '04 that RS doesn’t apply to him or his diocese.

i don’t know for sure, but i’d bet my last beer that the photo with the singer is from the youth day mass (thursday, the day before congress starts) where about 10,000 youth are shown this ****. he knows what he doing; he thinks that he is changing the Church in the future. the message is Church=good, cardinal=good, this mass=good, this mass=Church, etc. the saddest part of the whole thing.

the worst thing is that these photos don’t show the half of it. mahoney’s idea of the holy liturgy is performance, audience, hyperventalating euphoria, entertainment. people in the pews and money in the basket.

so who’s fault is it? it is easy to blame him, but the real problem is the people who judge their parish, etc. according to their likes and dislikes and then shop around for what pleases them. they abandon parishes, bad mouth bishops… the people who know what’s right have abandonned all the places where this stuff happens. yeah there are a few who will post back “not me” but it is the majority that counts. so for all of you who have abandonned what you should be fighting for, you get half the blame. i sit in my parish alone every sunday.

for those of you who are indignant about the little things that happen in your parishes, this stuff will make its way to you soon. this is a catechists’ convention. the people go with the intention of ‘learning’ and then ‘teaching’ in their parishes. it is a slow moving, deadly disease. these lemmings suck it in. they applaud after every ‘hymn’ (i call it “number”)

just because Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail, that doesn’t mean you and i and our neighbors will remain part of that which the gates of hell will not prevail against. the u.s doesn’t have to survive in order for Jesus to be true too his word.

if you are brave enough, you should all try to get to this thing. your heart will be shaken to its core. you’ll realise that the battle is not this or that sentence in the GIRM or RS; its about the calculated undermining to the Church itself.
 
Every time someone posts about a liturgical abuse in their parish someone else will tell them not to worry and stop being the liturgy police. One can’t win it seems.

Your half defense of Mahony seems hollow to me. While he may not carry all the blame he is in charge and he must desire all this rubbish to go on. His history is well known. No defense is possible.
 
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JustSomeGuy:
…so who’s fault is it? it is easy to blame him, but the real problem is the people who judge their parish, etc. according to their likes and dislikes and then shop around for what pleases them. they abandon parishes, bad mouth bishops… the people who know what’s right have abandonned all the places where this stuff happens. yeah there are a few who will post back “not me” but it is the majority that counts. so for all of you who have abandonned what you should be fighting for, you get half the blame. i sit in my parish alone every sunday…
You’re right. This stuff has to be fought. And there are different ways to go about it. Going down to your parish (where hardly anyone knows you because you only show up once a week for Mass but are otherwise not involved) and taking a hostile approach is one way. But it isn’t very effective. I’ve found that you have to give people some time to get to know you. Once they get to know you, and you have shown them respect and vice versa, they’re more likely to listen to you when you have a critique. And you shouldn’t try to critique everything that’s wrong. That’s a good way to stick out like a sore thumb. Pick one or two things to work on. And don’t forget what’s most important. In my parish, good people have integrated adoration of the Blessed Sacrament into the youth program. And the youth have responded beautifully. Don’t underestimate the power of Christ to really rock the boat.
 
Fix-

The reply by JustSomeGuy should in no way be read as a defense (either half, quarter or otherwise) of Cardinal Mahoney or Bishop Brown (current bishop of Orange California diocese and cosponsor of this debacle) but rather, I believe, a legitimate correction to inaccurate facts included with the original post. If we want our critiques of Cardinal Mahoney, and those within the US Church who are like him, to not be dismissed as polemical or riddled with inaccuracies we need to be accurate to the smallest (albeit probably inconsequential) details and not overstate our case.
As a returning Californian, (back since 5/04, but born and raised in the state) but a relatively new Catholic (I was recieved into the Church in the Diocese of Arlington, Virginia in 1998) I have been greatly dismayed by the state of the Church here, but like JustSomeGuy I see no point in church-hopping/parish-shopping. My Pastor is weak, overly concerned with “not being reactionary” and otherwise uninspiring to me and my family (wife and four children). Abandoning the local parish I believe will simply exacerbate the problem and do nothing to bring about a return to reverence within this diocese.

By the way, my mother-in-law strongly encouraged my wife and I to attend this congress with her. After looking at the speakers list and looking into their backgrounds and written material I could not in good conscience give a dime to this charade. The abuses perpetrated in the pictures will be the least of the worries for local Catholics if Religious Education Directors and Catechists try to bring the things they learned at this conference back to their parishes.

Continue to pray for the all those of us suffering here in Southern California.
 
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fix:
Every time someone posts about a liturgical abuse in their parish someone else will tell them not to worry and stop being the liturgy police. One can’t win it seems.

Your half defense of Mahony seems hollow to me. While he may not carry all the blame he is in charge and he must desire all this rubbish to go on. His history is well known. No defense is possible.
i am not defending him. i’m saying we have to be fair, accurate, and practical. these photos are not what they were proported to be. and some other observations were a little skewed. don’t get me wrong, mahoney is the bad guy. but so are those who vilify him without recourse to the truth. and so are they who turn and run.

as for liturgy police, etc.: i’ve read some pretty un-Christ-like comments and attitudes on these forums. if you’re all about punishment and figuring out who to throw into the hellfire first first, then you are the enemy too. i think that’s what a lot of the reaction is on these forums. because, frankly, if that is what i am going to turn into by caring about the Mass and the Church, warn me now. i’ll stop. becoming like the enemy under the guise of battling against him is defeat no matter how you look at it.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
It’s like he’s telling the Holy See, “Kiss my grits!”
There is a cancer in the Church and it is not catholic. My Mom used to say “the fish rots from the head”.Will Rome someday do something?? I thank god for the Latin Rite Indult Mass because compared to this it is a beacon of Catholicity.

Fogny
 
Dr. Bombay:
Don’t make a fool of yourself by presuming you know anything about me by reading a few posts on the internet.

My brother lives in Los Angeles and I’ve visited and attended Mass there several times.

And by the way, I wasn’t making a blanket statement about what one is exposed to at local parishes. I was expressing my sympathy that Catholics have this man as their shepherd.

And I did pray for all the poor Catholics in LA last night, even fools like you. 😃
All you are doing is compounding your boorishness…
 
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JustSomeGuy:
…if you think they’re going to buy 40 gold ciboria and chalices in order to distribute Communion, you are dreaming…

…the pitchers are commonplace since the cardinal issued a statement in '04 that RS doesn’t apply to him or his diocese…
I am certain there are more than 40 gold (or gold/glass) ciboriums and chalices available in the sacristy at Roj Mahony – the new cathedral.

Mahony does not have the authority to discount RS. He non-compliance (even though he is supposidly waiting for a second responsum) is sickening.
 
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WBOZ:
Fix-

The reply by JustSomeGuy should in no way be read as a defense (either half, quarter or otherwise) of Cardinal Mahoney or Bishop Brown (current bishop of Orange California diocese and cosponsor of this debacle) but rather, I believe, a legitimate correction to inaccurate facts included with the original post. If we want our critiques of Cardinal Mahoney, and those within the US Church who are like him, to not be dismissed as polemical or riddled with inaccuracies we need to be accurate to the smallest (albeit probably inconsequential) details and not overstate our case.
As a returning Californian, (back since 5/04, but born and raised in the state) but a relatively new Catholic (I was recieved into the Church in the Diocese of Arlington, Virginia in 1998) I have been greatly dismayed by the state of the Church here, but like JustSomeGuy I see no point in church-hopping/parish-shopping. My Pastor is weak, overly concerned with “not being reactionary” and otherwise uninspiring to me and my family (wife and four children). Abandoning the local parish I believe will simply exacerbate the problem and do nothing to bring about a return to reverence within this diocese.

By the way, my mother-in-law strongly encouraged my wife and I to attend this congress with her. After looking at the speakers list and looking into their backgrounds and written material I could not in good conscience give a dime to this charade. The abuses perpetrated in the pictures will be the least of the worries for local Catholics if Religious Education Directors and Catechists try to bring the things they learned at this conference back to their parishes.

Continue to pray for the all those of us suffering here in Southern California.
I am all for accuarcy, but to be honest whether the photos are from this year or last year or the year before really is almost beside the point. Has there been a grand conversion among all those in the LA diocese who promote such things? I have heard not read there has been one.

This thread only highlights what some may not know about the heterodoxy that continues in that diocese. If you corrected the record as to the dates, wonderful.

I will pray for those in that diocese and my diocese which is almost as liberal.
 
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JustSomeGuy:
i am not defending him. i’m saying we have to be fair, accurate, and practical. these photos are not what they were proported to be. and some other observations were a little skewed. don’t get me wrong, mahoney is the bad guy. but so are those who vilify him without recourse to the truth. and so are they who turn and run.

as for liturgy police, etc.: i’ve read some pretty un-Christ-like comments and attitudes on these forums. if you’re all about punishment and figuring out who to throw into the hellfire first first, then you are the enemy too. i think that’s what a lot of the reaction is on these forums. because, frankly, if that is what i am going to turn into by caring about the Mass and the Church, warn me now. i’ll stop. becoming like the enemy under the guise of battling against him is defeat no matter how you look at it.
I disagree with your views. Most on these forums are fair, but strict. I am not worried about too much preaching on hell fire, it is the opposite that has gotten us to the point where a cardinal can defy Rome and the most we come up with is to dot our i’s before pointing out the lunancy.
 
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Fogny:
There is a cancer in the Church and it is not catholic. My Mom used to say “the fish rots from the head”.Will Rome someday do something?? I thank god for the Latin Rite ***Indult ***Mass because compared to this it is a beacon of Catholicity.

Fogny
And though I’ve never been to one, in this instance, I’m sure I would agree whole-heartedly!
 
(First of all is this real? Did someone use photoshop or is this really a Catholic mass?)

So here is what I saw that nobody talked about.

-Post #1, 1st pic, if you look carefully INTO the side of the the “altar” right above the tree you will see a little picuture of Mary with her head down looking sad.

-Post #1, 1st pic, the “altar girl” behind the woman doing animal charades (im guessing she is a monkey?) is facing the wrong way.

-Post #1, 2nd pic, if you look into the first wine pitcher you can see a face in the right-side part of the wine.

-Post#1, 2nd pic, one of the pitchers doesnt match the other two.

-Post #1, 3rd pic, the main candle is burned out.

-Post #1, 3rd pic, Even the kids turn their backs to Britney.

-Post #1, 2nd & 3rd pic, the priest is wearing a womans watch and britney is wearing a mans watch.

Post #13, 1st pic, a candle in the left side in the back is burned out.

Post #13, 1st pic, one guy on the steps on the left with his back turned cant take it and throws up in a bag.

-Post #13, the 2nd pic, the first woman in blue only has one foot.

-Post #13, 2nd pic, the guy in the middle cant keep it to himself.

So what do you guys think? Have I lost it from looking at such disrespect of the mass? If this is real, then what was going on here? This cant be allowed, can it?
 
-Post #1, 1st pic, if you look carefully INTO the side of the the “altar” right above the tree you will see a little picuture of Mary with her head down looking sad.

-Post #1, 1st pic, the “altar girl” behind the woman doing animal charades (im guessing she is a monkey?) is facing the wrong way.

-Post #1, 2nd pic, if you look into the first wine pitcher you can see a face in the right-side part of the wine.

-Post#1, 2nd pic, one of the pitchers doesnt match the other two.

-Post #1, 3rd pic, the main candle is burned out.

-Post #1, 3rd pic, Even the kids turn their backs to Britney.

-Post #1, 2nd & 3rd pic, the priest is wearing a womans watch and britney is wearing a mans watch.

Post #13, 1st pic, a candle in the left side in the back is burned out.

Post #13, 1st pic, one guy on the steps on the left with his back turned cant take it and throws up in a bag.

-Post #13, the 2nd pic, the first woman in blue only has one foot.

-Post #13, 2nd pic, the guy in the middle cant keep it to himself.
what are you on?

they are real photos.
 
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