L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
I love Mother Angelica and since God started that network I guess the angry Cardinal didn’t have much luck shutting it down
Photographs from 2005 Los Angeles Religious Education Conference
- Status
E
EddieArent
Guest
Are you really that ignorant? Too say SSPX Masses are invalid is laughable if you claim to know what you’re talking about.
M
maggiec
Guest
I thought this were posted quite some time ago. Are you sure they are from this year?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
This isn’t true. The SSPX is schismatic and may well be heretical (I’ve heard from the mouth of an SSPX priest the Novus Ordo Mass called an “abomination” and another quoted as saying that the post-Conciliar Church is a “devil-inspired religion.”), but their orders and thus their masses are valid. They’re illicit, their priests have no faculties to offer the Sacraments save in an emergency, their bishops no authority to grant faculties, every Mass or other Sacrament they celebrate is a further spiral into disobedience (and to be fair, the Cardinal Archbishop of Los Angles doesn’t appear to be coming off too well on the “spirit of obedience” factor), but their Mass is valid.
S
Scotty_PGH
Guest
You will know a tree by its fruit. Mother Angelica has brought MANY more souls into the Church than Mahoney ever did. In fact, that’s a laughable statement. They’re not even in the same statistical universe.I love Mother Angelica and since God started that network I guess the angry Cardinal didn’t have much luck shutting it down
O
OrthoCath
Guest
Because Pope John Paul II fully endorsed his work and because Pope Benedict also fully endorses Cardinal Mahoney.
This is one of hundreds of reasons why I think atleast Pope John Paul should never be declared a Saint much less have the title Great.
This is one of hundreds of reasons why I think Vatican II was a complete failure and the whole thing should be scrapped.
Please note that there are many many Cardinal Mahoneys in other countries all with the full blessing of the Vatican.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
The popes don’t micromanage the Church (as I’m sure has been pointed out before). There’s a whole process employed to pick bishops that comes out of the already existent bishops (they give/get names), it goes through the apostolic delegate, etc. The pope probably meets few of the men he appoints to the episcopacy, until after they are in place and making an ad limina visit. AND there’s a priest shortage, so the pickings for who stands out enough to make a bishop must be pretty slim. “Fully endorses” is a gross and irresponsible allegation. “Tolerates” might come closer, but even then and as much as I dislike these pictures, what heresy has Roger Mahoney uttered or taught? Has he denied the Real Presence? The Holy Trinity? The Assumption or the Immaculate Conception? For good or ill, Bishops have some leeway over the liturgies in their dioceses (and from the looks of it, in LA it’s admittedly for ill). I don’t see that as a reflection on the Pope. I shouldn’t go totting up the old Holy Father’s shortcomings too closely if I were you. None of us has carried the cross that he did, the weight of the entire Church on his shoulders. He’ll be Saint John Paul the Great and remembered long after you and I are dust and moldy bones.
F
Freeway4321
Guest
T
Trick
Guest
I know that liturgical dancing(movement) is not supposed to be allowed at or during a Mass.
Would it be acceptable to have it immediately prior or after the end of Mass ?
Is liturgical dancing allowed and or is appropriate at any other Catholic liturgies or ceremonies other than the Mass ?
Trick
Would it be acceptable to have it immediately prior or after the end of Mass ?
Is liturgical dancing allowed and or is appropriate at any other Catholic liturgies or ceremonies other than the Mass ?
Trick
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
SHHHHHHHH!!! Don’t give 'em any ideas!
Technically, you may be right. I don’t know. Mass starts with the “In the Name of …” and ends with the “Thanks be to God” after “The Mass is ended, go in peace.”
I get that squirmy, “I’m-embarassed-for-you-and-all-your-ancestors” feeling when I see these pictures, I cannot imagine having to endure an actual performance.
O
OrthoCath
Guest
JKirk,
Redemptionis Sacramentum prohibits introducing elements not contemplated by the liturgical books. But I guess “Cardinal” Mahoney doesn’t need to read such documents because he has “leeway over the liturgies.”
Ok so you are making an excuse for all and there is a lot of ALL abuses since Vatican II?
There is a shortage of priest in the Novus Ordo rite. In the Traditional rite vocations are flourishing. Let’s just state the facts please!
I believe Mother Anglica thought “Cardinal” Mahoney taught heresy. In fact, on EWTN she told the people under his jurisdication to ignore him.
Yes, according to Mother Anglica. “Cardinal” Mahony’s Eucharistic teaching in a pastoral letter seemed to deny transubstantiation.
Really, so a Cardinal can change the rite to meet his whim even when the Vatican has spoken against it?
Redemptionis Sacramentum prohibits introducing elements not contemplated by the liturgical books. But I guess “Cardinal” Mahoney doesn’t need to read such documents because he has “leeway over the liturgies.”
I do, in fact I would go so far as to suggest Pope John Paul II go down in history as one of the worst Popes. I guess you and I will disagree on that point.
First the Church has NOT declared him “Great.” Second Hitler was remember and still is remembered “long after you and are dust and moldy bones.” Does that mean Hitler was a good person?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
**The last sentence in the paragraph is beneath both contempt and notice. As for the first, here’s a little history lesson: the Church doesn’t declare any pope “the Great.” It’s an epithet bestowed by historians and popular usage. As such, I’m betting you’d better get used to it. Look, JPII said himself he could have been a bit more of a disciplinarian. That doesn’t outweigh his other accomplishments nor his obvious greatness. And he isn’t the first pope who’s had bishops act up under him nor the first one who didn’t fire them. As for *"***Pope John Paul II go down in history as one of the worst Popes", well, I’ve heard two groups saying that: the ultra-left and the ultra-right. I hope you take comfort in having so much in common with Father Richard McBrien.
O
OrthoCath
Guest
JKirk,
I might recommend this site:
seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119.html
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Besides North America you can take any country like Brazil, Poland, Italy, etc… and the numbers of Traditional Seminarians are increasing.
May I recommend a book:
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0829416455/104-2605189-2995924?v=glance
Also,
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261448/104-2605189-2995924?v=glance
I don’t have time to do your homework. The facts are out there and the Vatican even reports them.
I might recommend this site:
seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119.html
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Besides North America you can take any country like Brazil, Poland, Italy, etc… and the numbers of Traditional Seminarians are increasing.
May I recommend a book:
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0829416455/104-2605189-2995924?v=glance
Also,
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261448/104-2605189-2995924?v=glance
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
See, the website you sent me to is a EDIT site, not affiliated with a diocese or a religious order or the Holy See. Been there, seen it, don’t trust it. Whether you disobey from the left or from the right, it’s still disobedience.
The little graph is truly cute, my computer can make one as well (ie., what is your SOURCE for it?). Doesn’t seem like much to me, I mean for an order with a world-wide perview (I’ve nothing against the FFSP, I’ve nothing against the Indult, I’ve nothing against the more generous application thereof, I’m simply defending someone I love: John Paul II). We have 7 seminarians in our DIOCESE alone. I would think an ORDER belonging to the Church as a whole whould have even more.
Thanks for the book rec., I’m amazed, reading the review of one, that I attend a pre-VII parish: we have Eucharistic Adoration! AND I assume you felt the need to rec. the books to me because I’m a liberal? I’m not. I hew to what the Catholic Church teaches. Now here’s a book for you: The Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by His Late Holiness of Happy Memory, Pope John Paul II (the Great, santo subito!).
F
Freeway4321
Guest
I don’t know exactly what this is all about, but I know by just looking at when they started (FSSP) to now, they have grown tremendously.
If you want to hear what the Vocation director (at the time when it was recorder) has to say, listen to Catholic Answers Live - Treasures of the Tridentine Mass the August,05,1999 Catholic Answers Live with Father John Melnick, FSSP.
If you want to hear what the Vocation director (at the time when it was recorder) has to say, listen to Catholic Answers Live - Treasures of the Tridentine Mass the August,05,1999 Catholic Answers Live with Father John Melnick, FSSP.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Wasn’t about the FFSP. Wasn’t about the Tridentine Mass. Wasn’t about Cardinal Mahoney. It was about an attack on the old Holy Father. Returning you to your regularly scheduled thread.
B
bear06
Guest
The reasoning doesn’t fit. Most of the wackos around the country we actually ordained priests before VII. Weren’t Frs. Greely, Rohr, McBrien, et. al. ordained before VII. Are we then supposed to blame the Tridentine Mass or Vatican I for them? What exactly was their downfall? I mean, it must be the Tridentine Mass and Vatican I. They preceded them so it must be so.
O
OrthoCath
Guest
JKirkLVNV
Your line of reason doesn’t seem logical. When present with facts about the growth of the Traditional movement you brush it aside as if their is no evidence.
If you want to know the facts go to FSSP website and Christ the King look at the vocations numbers they post. Then open Excel put the numbers in and make a graph and you will see the same graph I showed you. I refuse to waste my time entertaining your lack research. It is not for me to prove anything to you. The facts are black and white. I know the facts!
Fact is that the Traditional movement is growing and in some places exponential. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Fact Novus Ordo vocations are down with the exception of certain third worl countries. Even the Pope has said many of those vocations are not “true” vocations. Just people escaping poverty.
On the flip side the seminaries for the Traditional Catholics are packed. In some case they are turning people back.
Fact some Traditional parishes have multiple priest! Fact many Novus Ordo parishes don’t have priest. For example, francisdesales.com/index.html has two priest Fr. Fromageot and Father Denis G. Bouchard. Do I need to show you the many Novus Ordo parishes that are closing down because they don’t have priest?
Next fact, Traditional Catholics have more babies than Novus Ordo Catholics. Statistically, the Novus Ordo will just die out in time.
Back to Pope John Paul II, he was able to bring huge crowds of people to outdoor events. Yet, when the people went home the Churches remained empty. The Pope was a good actor and performed well on stage. Beyond that the Church he left is in crisis. In the USA alone the cost of the Sex Scandal will run over 1 BILLION dollars! Such a waste! Many of those Bishops accused where appointed by JP II.
Again, if you want to talk facts I can share many facts with you.
Yours in Christ!
Your line of reason doesn’t seem logical. When present with facts about the growth of the Traditional movement you brush it aside as if their is no evidence.
If you want to know the facts go to FSSP website and Christ the King look at the vocations numbers they post. Then open Excel put the numbers in and make a graph and you will see the same graph I showed you. I refuse to waste my time entertaining your lack research. It is not for me to prove anything to you. The facts are black and white. I know the facts!
Fact is that the Traditional movement is growing and in some places exponential. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Fact Novus Ordo vocations are down with the exception of certain third worl countries. Even the Pope has said many of those vocations are not “true” vocations. Just people escaping poverty.
On the flip side the seminaries for the Traditional Catholics are packed. In some case they are turning people back.
Fact some Traditional parishes have multiple priest! Fact many Novus Ordo parishes don’t have priest. For example, francisdesales.com/index.html has two priest Fr. Fromageot and Father Denis G. Bouchard. Do I need to show you the many Novus Ordo parishes that are closing down because they don’t have priest?
Next fact, Traditional Catholics have more babies than Novus Ordo Catholics. Statistically, the Novus Ordo will just die out in time.
Back to Pope John Paul II, he was able to bring huge crowds of people to outdoor events. Yet, when the people went home the Churches remained empty. The Pope was a good actor and performed well on stage. Beyond that the Church he left is in crisis. In the USA alone the cost of the Sex Scandal will run over 1 BILLION dollars! Such a waste! Many of those Bishops accused where appointed by JP II.
Again, if you want to talk facts I can share many facts with you.
Yours in Christ!
O
OrthoCath
Guest
JKirkLVNV,
If I may share another fact with you? Bishop Vincent Malone was appointed by JP II. Here is more fruit of JP II’s legacy:
Bishops says let women hear confession and grant absolution
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/08/28/nconfes28.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/08/28/ixhome.html
or
cathnews.com/news/308/164.php
Yours in Christ!
If I may share another fact with you? Bishop Vincent Malone was appointed by JP II. Here is more fruit of JP II’s legacy:
Bishops says let women hear confession and grant absolution
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/08/28/nconfes28.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/08/28/ixhome.html
or
cathnews.com/news/308/164.php
Yours in Christ!
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
OrthoCath,
AGAIN, look into the process of HOW the names of possible candidates for the episcopate are brought to the pope and how the whole process is carried out. The whole vetting process almost seems designed to restrict the Pope’s choices.
Cardinal Arinze has said that the Mass of Paul VI will not be leaving. You’re nurturing a false hope. We may see a more generous application of the Indult, which is as should be, but I see no reason to believe that the TLM will ever again be the normative Mass of the Church nor is it being called for to be. Here’s my numbers:
In my diocese there are 527, 000 Catholics (about 1/3 of the total population of the Las Vegas Valley). Let’s say only about 10% of them show up for Mass on any given Sunday (not impossible-we have enormous parishes with 7-8 Masses from the Sat. Vigil to the 5:30 Mass on Sundays, and parking lots full to overflowing).Those are the “church goers,” we’ll call them. Let’s say that’s 50, 000 people. There are 2 small Byzantine Catholic churches and one extremely small Maronite Catholic church (I don’t think all together they have a congregation of even 1500…but for ease of math, let’s say that altogether they have 5,000). So that would be 45, 000 in the Latin Rite.
We don’t have an indult Mass nor do the FSSP serve here. We have ONE SSPX chapel (we’ve had a couple of other sedevacanteist groups that met for a while in hotel conference rooms, but they’ve departed the scene). I’ve only attended one Mass there, so I freely admit, the place may well be packed for the rest of the year, but the day I went (to High Mass), there were about 75 people, give or take 2-3, but that also includes the priest. Now, they also have a low Mass on Sundays, so let’s be generous and say that people who didn’t want to attend High Mass, but went to low mass numbered about 425 (and the chapel would not have held that many, so I am being generous), for a total of 500 people whom we shall call extremely committed to the TLM.
Out of 45, 000 members of the Latin Rite, 500 want the Latin Mass bad enough to court schism. That’s like .01%, in this major metropolitan area. I’ve always thought we should have a very generous application of the Indult, but I’ve got to say, maybe my bishop doesn’t see it as a good expenditure of either time, talent, or treasure. I mean, the Independent Catholic Church pulls in approximately the same numbers (they meet in a store front). Of course, I would have to accede to the notion that bishops should, like Jesus, be willing to leave the 99 safe in the fold and pursue the 1 that is lost (in this case, in near schism, depending on their level of “adherance”), but surely that could mean one or two TLM/Indult Masses per week at a regular parish?
I’m serious, our parishes are packed to the gills (all of them offer only the Mass of Paul VI). You can come and visit for verification. I’ve tried to go to Mass at Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton and Saint Joseph Husband of Mary on different occasions because I was near either of them and it was convinient, and not been able to find a place to park.
We have to run concurrent Masses at Christmas and Easter (one in the church, one in the gym, at the same time, people parked down the street and a mile and a half away at the Water District, with buses running in loops to get people there). Our CCD programs are outstanding and we can’t ever find enough teachers. Our parochial schools are full and we have waiting lists. Every year, in my parish 40-50 adults are brought into the Church at Easter, and my parish is probably behind the three largest. We send one or two fellows a year-sixteen months off to seminary, not great, but it’s the age we live in. The thing that tells me the most about the vitality of the my diocese (where only the Mass of Paul VI and the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom are celebrated…licitly, anyway) are the long, long, LONG lines at the confessionals. Some times you have to wait as long as an hour to get in.
I’m happy for the FSSP. I still don’t think 80 seminarians for an order (fairly world wide) is that extravagant. I don’t think it’s *bad, *and I see it as a good thing for them and for the Church. I just don’t think it’s much of a comment on the relative health of the Church in general (good in some places, bad in others), or much proof against the Mass of Paul VI, or against Pope John Paul II. In fact, we’re seeing a rise, aren’t we, in the “John Paul II” generation of priests, young men coming in due to his influence? I know I’ve read articles on it, but I don’t know which Catholic journal or website they were in. Those are “John Paul II” priests, orthodox men. I very much think they would disagree with your views on the Holy Father, may he rest in peace.
The pedophile crisis in the American Church is the fault of Pope John Paul?!?!?! That’s as contemptible as the Hitler remark.
AGAIN, look into the process of HOW the names of possible candidates for the episcopate are brought to the pope and how the whole process is carried out. The whole vetting process almost seems designed to restrict the Pope’s choices.
Cardinal Arinze has said that the Mass of Paul VI will not be leaving. You’re nurturing a false hope. We may see a more generous application of the Indult, which is as should be, but I see no reason to believe that the TLM will ever again be the normative Mass of the Church nor is it being called for to be. Here’s my numbers:
In my diocese there are 527, 000 Catholics (about 1/3 of the total population of the Las Vegas Valley). Let’s say only about 10% of them show up for Mass on any given Sunday (not impossible-we have enormous parishes with 7-8 Masses from the Sat. Vigil to the 5:30 Mass on Sundays, and parking lots full to overflowing).Those are the “church goers,” we’ll call them. Let’s say that’s 50, 000 people. There are 2 small Byzantine Catholic churches and one extremely small Maronite Catholic church (I don’t think all together they have a congregation of even 1500…but for ease of math, let’s say that altogether they have 5,000). So that would be 45, 000 in the Latin Rite.
We don’t have an indult Mass nor do the FSSP serve here. We have ONE SSPX chapel (we’ve had a couple of other sedevacanteist groups that met for a while in hotel conference rooms, but they’ve departed the scene). I’ve only attended one Mass there, so I freely admit, the place may well be packed for the rest of the year, but the day I went (to High Mass), there were about 75 people, give or take 2-3, but that also includes the priest. Now, they also have a low Mass on Sundays, so let’s be generous and say that people who didn’t want to attend High Mass, but went to low mass numbered about 425 (and the chapel would not have held that many, so I am being generous), for a total of 500 people whom we shall call extremely committed to the TLM.
Out of 45, 000 members of the Latin Rite, 500 want the Latin Mass bad enough to court schism. That’s like .01%, in this major metropolitan area. I’ve always thought we should have a very generous application of the Indult, but I’ve got to say, maybe my bishop doesn’t see it as a good expenditure of either time, talent, or treasure. I mean, the Independent Catholic Church pulls in approximately the same numbers (they meet in a store front). Of course, I would have to accede to the notion that bishops should, like Jesus, be willing to leave the 99 safe in the fold and pursue the 1 that is lost (in this case, in near schism, depending on their level of “adherance”), but surely that could mean one or two TLM/Indult Masses per week at a regular parish?
I’m serious, our parishes are packed to the gills (all of them offer only the Mass of Paul VI). You can come and visit for verification. I’ve tried to go to Mass at Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton and Saint Joseph Husband of Mary on different occasions because I was near either of them and it was convinient, and not been able to find a place to park.
We have to run concurrent Masses at Christmas and Easter (one in the church, one in the gym, at the same time, people parked down the street and a mile and a half away at the Water District, with buses running in loops to get people there). Our CCD programs are outstanding and we can’t ever find enough teachers. Our parochial schools are full and we have waiting lists. Every year, in my parish 40-50 adults are brought into the Church at Easter, and my parish is probably behind the three largest. We send one or two fellows a year-sixteen months off to seminary, not great, but it’s the age we live in. The thing that tells me the most about the vitality of the my diocese (where only the Mass of Paul VI and the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom are celebrated…licitly, anyway) are the long, long, LONG lines at the confessionals. Some times you have to wait as long as an hour to get in.
I’m happy for the FSSP. I still don’t think 80 seminarians for an order (fairly world wide) is that extravagant. I don’t think it’s *bad, *and I see it as a good thing for them and for the Church. I just don’t think it’s much of a comment on the relative health of the Church in general (good in some places, bad in others), or much proof against the Mass of Paul VI, or against Pope John Paul II. In fact, we’re seeing a rise, aren’t we, in the “John Paul II” generation of priests, young men coming in due to his influence? I know I’ve read articles on it, but I don’t know which Catholic journal or website they were in. Those are “John Paul II” priests, orthodox men. I very much think they would disagree with your views on the Holy Father, may he rest in peace.
The pedophile crisis in the American Church is the fault of Pope John Paul?!?!?! That’s as contemptible as the Hitler remark.
- Status