Physical Gestures During Mass

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CB_Catholic said:
So are you saying that you fall on your face in trembling fear and adoration when you are in Church
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I do. Daily. I offer prayers of Adoration, Atonement, Thanksgiving, and my Petitions on my face before the blessed Sacrament.
CB_Catholic said:
Your statement IS a criticism and a judgmental observation of other people. You don’t really know what the others believe, and their actions are not always a clue.
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It is an objective observation not a judgment. As made clear throughout this thread It is not correct. The Orans position is reserved to the ordained. It makes no difference what one “believes”. There is the correct way and an incorrect way. Objectively, one would think once the correct way is pointed out it would be followed.
 
Michael85 said:
This page is a good introduction to traditional Catholic gestures and when to perform them: fisheaters.com/posture.html
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I think that list is a bit dated. Left-knee genuflection when meeting a bishop? The last 3 bishops I’ve met don’t even allow kissing of their ring. I believe papal left-knee genuflections went out with Pius XII.
 
phil19034 said:
True, but the traditional prayer position is palms together with fingers pointing towards the altar and right thumb over left thumb.

It’s not a required position, but it’s a traditional one which is still often taught to altar servers who wear albs and/or cassocks.

.
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The position that you described is certainly a traditional prayer position, but Orans position is also a traditional prayer position, as is the position with arms crossed over your chest.
 
babochka said:
The position that you described is certainly a traditional prayer position, but Orans position is also a traditional prayer position, as is the position with arms crossed over your chest.
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“I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands . . .” 1 Tim. 2:8, DRB
 
babochka said:
The position that you described is certainly a traditional prayer position, but Orans position is also a traditional prayer position, as is the position with arms crossed over your chest.
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True, but the Orans position of prayer is traditional for the person leading prayer or worship or for self prayer.

The position of the hands is meant to help focus your spirit. Hands clasped and pointed towards the Altar and/or God helps focus all your attention on God. It’s also fascinating that this traditional prayer position is used by nearly every religion world wide. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

The Orans position focuses your spirit on collecting the silent and/or verbal prayers of others and funneling them through you to God.

For example, if a mother or father were leading a family prayer, he or she might use the Orans position to collect the prayers of the household and funnel them up to God.

The Orans position is also a traditional hand position while sitting, either with arms outstretched or down to the side with palms up.

The crossed hands on chest position is not one I’m completely familiar with. However, I THINK it’s purpose is to engage in competitive prayer by focusing on your heart beat. I don’t think it’s used too much anymore because such practices can be confused with Eastern and New Age beliefs.

NOTE: I agree with Archbishop Sample, that it’s not something worth getting upset over. However, like the good Archbishop, I too find it curious that some people who INSIST on using the Orans position refuse to bow their heads at the Name of Jesus, the Holy Trinity and the Blessed Mother. And they refuse to do a profound bow during the creed and sometimes do not tap their chests with their fist during the Confiteor.

Here’s a page with good information from a Parish website in TX, really worth a read for everyone: sacredhearttex.org/78

God Bless
 
phil19034 said:
True, but the Orans position of prayer is traditional for the person leading prayer or worship or for self prayer.

The position of the hands is meant to help focus your spirit. Hands clasped and pointed towards the Altar and/or God helps focus all your attention on God. It’s also fascinating that this traditional prayer position is used by nearly every religion world wide. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

The Orans position focuses your spirit on collecting the silent and/or verbal prayers of others and funneling them through you to God.

For example, if a mother or father were leading a family prayer, he or she might use the Orans position to collect the prayers of the household and funnel them up to God.

The Orans position is also a traditional hand position while sitting, either with arms outstretched or down to the side with palms up.

The crossed hands on chest position is not one I’m completely familiar with. However, I THINK it’s purpose is to engage in competitive prayer by focusing on your heart beat. I don’t think it’s used too much anymore because such practices can be confused with Eastern and New Age beliefs.

NOTE: I agree with Archbishop Sample, that it’s not something worth getting upset over. However, like the good Archbishop, I too find it curious that some people who INSIST on using the Orans position refuse to bow their heads at the Name of Jesus, the Holy Trinity and the Blessed Mother. And they refuse to do a profound bow during the creed and sometimes do not tap their chests with their fist during the Confiteor.

Here’s a page with good information from a Parish website in TX, really worth a read for everyone: sacredhearttex.org/78

God Bless
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Is there a statement written by Archbishop Sample about this, or was it something you heard him say? I wasn’t able to find any reference to him with regard to this issue doing a Google search.
 
Havard said:
Is there a statement written by Archbishop Sample about this, or was it something you heard him say? I wasn’t able to find any reference to him with regard to this issue doing a Google search.
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It was on Catholic Answers Live.

catholic.com/audio/cal/6134

If you start this on minute 42 you will hear the question from the layman and the Archbishop’s answer. His answer goes until minute 48:20

God Bless
 
In the late 1960s some complained about “rigidity” in the Church, esp Mass. In my old parish, they emphasized the right to “spontaneous” gestures. This included among other things, holding hands through the Lord’s Prayer. The problem is that after awhile, the message was not “you **may **hold hands”, it was now “Everybody **will **hold hands”.

We need a balance here. I suspect a lot of the little gestures and practices that became almost mandatory (in the eyes of moms and nuns) in the years prior to Vatican II originated as some spontaneous practice, that later caught on - if not universally, in this ethnic group parishes.

We need a higher level of tolerance for unfamiliar gestures during Mass, but not so high a tolerance that we allow gestures to be distracting to others.
 
commenter said:
In the late 1960s some complained about “rigidity” in the Church, esp Mass. In my old parish, they emphasized the right to “spontaneous” gestures. This included among other things, holding hands through the Lord’s Prayer. The problem is that after awhile, the message was not “you **may **hold hands”, it was now “Everybody **will **hold hands”.

We need a balance here. I suspect a lot of the little gestures and practices that became almost mandatory (in the eyes of moms and nuns) in the years prior to Vatican II originated as some spontaneous practice, that later caught on - if not universally, in this ethnic group parishes.

We need a higher level of tolerance for unfamiliar gestures during Mass, but not so high a tolerance that we allow gestures to be distracting to others.
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Rumor is that the holding of hands during the Our Father originated with the teaching of children how to pray within the Cursillo movement, and it eventually spread everywhere. 🤷
 
omgriley said:
I’m wondering at what specific parts of the Mass do people tend to make gestures with their arms, and why they choose to do this when we are not instructed by the GIRM to do so.

I’m interested in hearing from anyone who practices this. What are your points of view?
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It’s a mutation of FOLLOW THE LEADER, made manifest post Vatican II

It is NOT harmful, AND if it brings one CLOSER to our God inn Spirit, even a good thing
 
omgriley said:
I’m wondering at what specific parts of the Mass do people tend to make gestures with their arms, and why they choose to do this when we are not instructed by the GIRM to do so.

I’m interested in hearing from anyone who practices this. What are your points of view?
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The GIRM actually uses a great restraint in its rubrics directed to those not ordained.

I think most of us who are liturgists from outside the United States will never forget the need for the Congregation of Divine Worship to intervene against zealotry when certain Americans were attempting to use the rubrics as a weapon against other members of the liturgical assembly. As the then prefect wrote to the then President of the Bishops’ Conference of the United States…with my bolding:
  • Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

    5 June 2003

    Prot. n. 855/03/L

    Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

    Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

    Francis Cardinal Arinze
    Prefect*
    Thus the prefect articulated the paradigm of a liturgist for this issue.
If the laity have, as the Cardinal Prefect says, the latitude to alter their bodily posture relative to the rubrics [kneeling instead of standing, sitting instead of kneeling], the rubrics should never be thought of, for the laity, as prescribing their posture down to the detail of how they are to position their hands – among multiple legitimate possibilities – while they pray.

And the same is true for the clergy as we offer the Mass. Today’s rubrics will prescribe when I am to extend my hands…they do not attempt to tell me the exact positions I must use…how far extended…the placement of the hands relative to the shoulders and so forth. Those are left to the preference of the Presider/concelebrant

As for the use of gestures in general, there are two point critical from* Sacrosanctum Concilium*:
30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes.
This passage being read in light of
*14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else*
The Orans gesture is not one reserved to the ordained; it is an ancient prayer posture which has come to renewed appreciation, thanks to the liturgical reform and renewal of these past decades.
 
babochka said:
The position that you described is certainly a traditional prayer position, but Orans position is also a traditional prayer position, as is the position with arms crossed over your chest.
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Indeed. And their origin, as you would know, has to be taken into account in weighing the great estimation in which we hold these venerable postures.
 
tawny said:
Exactly, for example it is only the Priests who should assume the Orans position during the Our Father. It is not in the GIRM for the laity to do so.
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There’s no prohibition to assuming the organs position during Mass. Not everything is mentioned in the GIRM either.

I have thought about the things I do without thinking at Mass that “liturgical inspectors” have questioned me about. For instance, I make a small cross with my thumb on the day’s Gospel reading in my missalette before crossing my forehead, mouth and heart. No prohibition (or requirement) to do that. It’s no one’s business but my own.

I pray using the “5 on 5” during the Lord’s Prayer. Also not in the GIRM and also not prohibited. Because I also attend an Eastern Catholic Church I sometimes cross myself “backwards.” Again, no prohibition.
 
phil19034 said:
NOTE: I agree with Archbishop Sample, that it’s not something worth getting upset over. However, like the good Archbishop, I too find it curious that some people who INSIST on using the Orans position refuse to bow their heads at the Name of Jesus, the Holy Trinity and the Blessed Mother. And they refuse to do a profound bow during the creed and sometimes do not tap their chests with their fist during the Confiteor.
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There appeared to be a correlation at the Mass I attended yesterday. At that church, no one knelt at any time either between the Sanctus and Doxology, nor after the Agnus Dei. This is not the norm for my diocese. On the other hand, it appeared that everyone was holding hands during the Our Father. 🤷
 
Havard said:
There appeared to be a correlation at the Mass I attended yesterday. At that church, no one knelt at any time either between the Sanctus and Doxology, nor after the Agnus Dei. This is not the norm for my diocese. On the other hand, it appeared that everyone was holding hands during the Our Father. 🤷
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I was grateful that holding hands was suspended during the flu season awhile back, and never got reinstated in most places around here. I am tempted to elaborate on how God works in mysterious ways …🙂

I have no objection to people crossing their arms on their chest during the Lord’s Prayer, or on waterslides.

The sad reality is that kneeling during the assigned times, bowing the head at the word “Jesus”, tapping one’s chest during the Confiteor, all have been neglected/discouraged by those who demand more lay “participation”, or who promote or require unusual expressions or gestures during Mass. The idea seems not so much lay participation, but trying to show “My gestures are better than yours”.

Anytime someone wants to push an innovation (and this was a cottage industry for a few decades) they find some reference to one person doing that, maybe in the 4th century, so it becomes “traditional” so do it now. Anytime they want to get rid of something they point out it was used for the last few hundred years, by a hundred million people, so it gets labelled “merely traditional”, so let’s discontinue it.
 
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