Physical Gestures During Mass

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"The idea seems not so much lay participation, but trying to show “My gestures are better than yours”.

Which is why I find myself closing my eyes during key moments of mass such as during the Our Father, and after communion. I don’t want to see what others are doing, lest I start judging them.
 
JanetF said:
"The idea seems not so much lay participation, but trying to show “My gestures are better than yours”.

Which is why I find myself closing my eyes during key moments of mass such as during the Our Father, and after communion. I don’t want to see what others are doing, lest I start judging them.
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I agree, we can’t judge individuals, who in most cases are simply passing on what they were taught is the only way to do things. But we can judge some situations, and suggest alternatives. Some people think holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is mandatory, while genuflecting before the Blessed Sacrament is unheard of. In my area, most of the people who brought out good and bad liturgical changes are retired but their practices linger. We can’t judge but can make suggestions.
 
JanetF said:
"The idea seems not so much lay participation, but trying to show “My gestures are better than yours”.

Which is why I find myself closing my eyes during key moments of mass such as during the Our Father, and after communion. I don’t want to see what others are doing, lest I start judging them.
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Where’s the like button?

I spend a lot of Mass time with my glasses off (which makes everything a colorful blur), and a considerable amount of that time with my eyes closed.
 
tawny said:
As Clare said; “Monkey see, monkey do”. Just lack of catechesis.
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I missed something there. I think he was saying that there are many things that are not specified…but may be okay.
 
Tarpeian_Rock said:
I think that list is a bit dated. Left-knee genuflection when meeting a bishop? The last 3 bishops I’ve met don’t even allow kissing of their ring. I believe papal left-knee genuflections went out with Pius XII.
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There was a Filipino bishop in the 80’s who when asked for his ring to be kissed used to reply, “Yes, its in my back pocket”.
 
babochka said:
Sometimes satire can be so good, painfully close to the truth, that it is hard to detect. 😃
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Sadly, the “real world” especially in the media is so irrational, so counter productive and even cruel, that satire is hard to tell from the real thing. The real thing is so stupid today.
 
Solomonson said:
There’s no prohibition to assuming the organs position during Mass. Not everything is mentioned in the GIRM either.

I have thought about the things I do without thinking at Mass that “liturgical inspectors” have questioned me about. For instance, I make a small cross with my thumb on the day’s Gospel reading in my missalette before crossing my forehead, mouth and heart. No prohibition (or requirement) to do that. It’s no one’s business but my own.

I pray using the “5 on 5” during the Lord’s Prayer. Also not in the GIRM and also not prohibited. Because I also attend an Eastern Catholic Church I sometimes cross myself “backwards.” Again, no prohibition.
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Sounds to me like you’re doing things to provoke people to pay attention to you. So that you can then denounce them as liturgical inspectors. By creating your own personal movements slightly different than everyone else you draw attention away from the Divine Liturgy and to yourself. Just my opinion. But you’re correct; people should ignore you and thereby take away the reinforcement and then you’d probably just knock it off. Liturgical inspector mission accomplished!
 
janeway529 said:
Rumor is that the holding of hands during the Our Father originated with the teaching of children how to pray within the Cursillo movement, and it eventually spread everywhere. 🤷
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ah - another rumor.

The Cursillo movement started in the 1940’s. When I made my Cursillo, in the late 70’s, no one held hands during the Our Father.

More likely, it can be traced back to the charismatic movement which started in the 1960’s,and was the time when holding hands during the Our Father started.
And while some object to it, Rome has been aware of it for decades; has issued two revisions to the GIRM and another modification, and still has not made any mention whatsoever of the matter, in spite of all of the objections which have been made concerning it.

Perhaps the reason Rome does not enter into the matter was best expressed by Cardinal Arinze, ;commenting on posture one might take upon returning to one’s pew after reception of Communion: Rome does not intend to make a rigid rule concerning the matter.

It would appear they do not wish to be rigid concerning the Our Father postures of holding hands, or the orans position. Thus the deafening silence in the GIRM concerning it
 
otjm said:
ah - another rumor.

The Cursillo movement started in the 1940’s. When I made my Cursillo, in the late 70’s, no one held hands during the Our Father.

More likely, it can be traced back to the charismatic movement which started in the 1960’s,and was the time when holding hands during the Our Father started.
And while some object to it, Rome has been aware of it for decades; has issued two revisions to the GIRM and another modification, and still has not made any mention whatsoever of the matter, in spite of all of the objections which have been made concerning it.

Perhaps the reason Rome does not enter into the matter was best expressed by Cardinal Arinze, ;commenting on posture one might take upon returning to one’s pew after reception of Communion: Rome does not intend to make a rigid rule concerning the matter.

It would appear they do not wish to be rigid concerning the Our Father postures of holding hands, or the orans position. Thus the deafening silence in the GIRM concerning it
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I would be cautious about using words like “deafening silence”, or reading into some possible motive to not wish to be rigid.

Every time the Vatican goes a couple years without reaffirming Humanae Vitae, the media interprets this as “deafening silence” (i. e. backing away from a previous position).
Each time a bishop goes through a year addressing some topics, but not topic “X”, the media will conclude that the diocese does not wish to be rigid on topic X; (thus it is ok to just do it).
 
Monty61 said:
Sounds to me like you’re doing things to provoke people to pay attention to you. So that you can then denounce them as liturgical inspectors. By creating your own personal movements slightly different than everyone else you draw attention away from the Divine Liturgy and to yourself. Just my opinion. But you’re correct; people should ignore you and thereby take away the reinforcement and then you’d probably just knock it off. Liturgical inspector mission accomplished!
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You’re wrong and your hostility is misplaced.

As others have pointed out, certain gestures that drive some people absolutely nuts during the celebration of the Mass (e.g. holding hands, stepping out of one’s seat at the kiss of peace, etc.) aren’t proscribed by the Holy See. The blanket “if it’s not in the GIRM, don’t do it” just doesn’t apply.

I comment largely for two reasons. First, like it or not, people do very real damage to themselves by becoming obsessed about such matters during the celebration of the Mass. Then again this really only impacts the individual so perhaps I shouldn’t care?

What impacts me however are the cries of “liturgical abuse” about things that aren’t liturgical abuses like the two listed above. Such cries create a very negative din after awhile and give some an excuse to ignore actual liturgical abuses. That does impact me and millions of others.
 
phil19034 said:
True, but the traditional prayer position is palms together with fingers pointing towards the altar and right thumb over left thumb.

It’s not a required position, but it’s a traditional one which is still often taught to altar servers who wear albs and/or cassocks.

The Orans position is a collection of prayers from the faithful to funnel them up to God.

Seeing the laity do it used to bother me a lot. Now it really doesn’t, but it does still bother me when I see non-priests doing it in the Sanctuary.
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What I see more often is the laity with their hands outstretched, palms up, during the Our Father, and I see this as a sign first of surrender (i.e. in combat, “I have no weapon”) and of showing our neediness to God. Or, to quote For King and Country:

“With our white flag sailing in the night
Eyes pointed to the sky
Hands up and open wide, open wide” - O God Forgive Us

I see this as very appropriate when we say the Our Father.

It’s not a sign of irreverence, it’s a sign of relationship.

No man knows what is in another’s heart, only God knows that. Why, therefore, are we making judgements based solely on what we see others doing?
 
Rahn said:
What I see more often is the laity with their hands outstretched, palms up, during the Our Father, and I see this as a sign first of surrender (i.e. in combat, “I have no weapon”) and of showing our neediness to God. Or, to quote For King and Country:

“With our white flag sailing in the night
Eyes pointed to the sky
Hands up and open wide, open wide” - O God Forgive Us

I see this as very appropriate when we say the Our Father.

It’s not a sign of irreverence, it’s a sign of relationship.

No man knows what is in another’s heart, only God knows that. Why, therefore, are we making judgements based solely on what we see others doing?
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True… but I know people who only do this when praying the Our Father during Mass and do not do it when praying the prayer outside of Mass.
 
commenter said:
I would be cautious about using words like “deafening silence”, or reading into some possible motive to not wish to be rigid.

Every time the Vatican goes a couple years without reaffirming Humanae Vitae, the media interprets this as “deafening silence” (i. e. backing away from a previous position).
Each time a bishop goes through a year addressing some topics, but not topic “X”, the media will conclude that the diocese does not wish to be rigid on topic X; (thus it is ok to just do it).
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I will gladly stand by my comment of “deafening silence”. I can’t say that there have been formal petitions to the proper dicastery to correct this issue, but there have been people who have sent letters to the dicastery complaining of the matter. How I know? They have been quite proud to announce publicly that they sent the letter.

Additionally, I kind of doubt that no bishops have ever inquired concerning the matter, particularly in light of the fact that the USCCB atr one point formally considered petitioning Rome for specific permission for people to use the orans position during the Our Father. That was withdrawn, but I seriously doubt that Rome did not know the USCCB was considering the matter - anyone who thinks there is no back channel between countries and Rome, and various dioceses and Rome is naive as to how things move within the Church. And to add to that, there have been a number of papal nuncios to the US - and I seriously doubt none of them have ever broached the matter quietly.

What the media does or says is irrelevant to the matter as it appears pure luck that anything ever comes close to being reported accurately. Humanae Vitae was one document, and it is not periodically revised; the GIRM, on the other hand, is periodically revised, and that is where the matter would be addressed. It (hand and arm issues) has been going on for something like 50 years; so it is not some small matter occurring in some backwoods isolation.

Contrary to the belief of one of the individuals who posts regularly, there are two philosophical approaches to law - Germanic and Mediterranean (and this comes from a law school class I took), and last I looked, the Seat of Peter is still in the Mediterranean area of the world. And the short stated difference between the two is that the Germanic approach to law is “whatever is not permitted is forbidden” and the Mediterranean approach is “whatever is not forbidden is allowed”.

The specifics of the comment about not being rigid were the words used by Cardinal Arinze which were published as to a response to a dubium submitted by then Cardinal George of Chicago. They were Arinze’s words, not my interpretation of them.

I don;'t have a dog in the fight. The arm gesture which often accompanies “And with your spirit” has aggravated me for decades. Hand holding does not bother me - I am perfectly fine either way. And I often use the orans position in private prayer and generally not during the Our Father in Mass. I tend to agree with Archbishop Chaput when he published a letter in Colorado - it is neither forbidden nor required, and both sides need to treat the other side with charity. He apparently was sick and tired of having the matter addressed to him by various people in his diocese.
 
DaveBj said:
The only thing that’s forbidden is for the laity to copy the gestures of the priest. Other than that, Da Rulz say nothing about what one should or should not do with his/her hands.

As for me, I keep my hands clasped and my eyes and thoughts to myself.
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Where is that written? Were that the case, crossing ourselves as Latin Rite Catholics from left to right (which began by the faithful imitating the priest) would be forbidden.

So would 100% harmless things like crossing the Gospel reading in a missalette with one’s right thumb before crossing one’s forehead, lips and heart.
 
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