Physical Necessity?

[tonyrey]

A false dilemma. God is found both

The only reason why it would is presumption.

The analogy is totally false. One

• ratio is not comparable to a set of numerous circumstances essential for the existence of living organisms.
  You missed my point. He doesn’t know the circumstances. Because he can’t possibly know the circumstances.

It is sufficient to know what’s necessary for life on this planet to calculate the probability of its existence elsewhere. Scientists are not unaware of the nature of the universe.

Eminent Christian scientists are well aware that the miracle of life does not preclude investigation into all the conditions essential for life.

You missed my point. He is not a scientist or he wouldn’t make such statements. His only concern appears to be polemic for his interior designer. He’s not interested in the subject matter for its own sake, only in using it to bolster his belief.

Christianity and science are not mutually exclusive. If the universe is God’s handiwork there must be evidence of its divine origin, value and purpose.

Miracles often occur when cures are found in **both **

*prayer and scientific investigation. They are not mutually exclusive.
When someone has an unexplained remission from a disease, the immoral thing to do is call it a miracle and go no further. The moral action is to match it with similar cases and try to find a common denominator, since that could lead to a cure for everyone else with the disease.

Another false dilemma!

                                        *

Jesus was not an obscurantist. He told us solve problems as well as pray to the Father.

Agreed. Jesus is light not darkness.*That belief doesn’t tally with the view that His followers are so easily led astray by increased exposure to other cultures…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . reminded me of one which some may not agree with, but it’s on-topic:
I stand at the seashore, alone, and start to think. . . . Richard Fenyman, The Value of Science, a public address to the National Academy of Sciences, 1955.

I’m not sure I agree or disagree with poetry.

I read your post while having coffee this morning and started a sort of analysis of the poem.

Every morning I walk through a park area to get to work.
Seasons come and go, day after day.
In summer, my shirt can be drenched in sweat.
Last week, I got a bit of frostbite as the wind cut through too flimsy wool pants.

I told my son to scatter my ashes on that path as a blessing
to the birds and the trees, to all those whom I have passed
in my prayers and mediations over some two thousand hours walking.
He wants me to be buried next to my wife, where the plaque shows no date for my eventual demise.
Scadalous, petty, mean-spirited interactions between myself and the owner of the family plot have rendered this not an option available to myself.
I will be dead; at that point my son will do what he will do.

On my trek today, my head was thinking, my heart led me elsewhere.

The trampled snow
snap, crackles, pops
under resolute boots.

Elsewhere, the sun,
teeny, tiny sparkles,
dances on white pillows
cuddling sleeping grey trees.

A smile separates bushy whiskers,
cheeks reprieved
from cold windy gusts.

Contrast the feelings between those elicited by the poem and my collection of words.
Fenyman, alone, on the beach could be anywhere, because he is in his thoughts.
Intellectual conceptualizations take him out of the moment and into the realm of ideas.

Considerations of objective reality reveal themselves as absolute subjectivity.
Over the punch line, a huddle of Zen monks giggle amongst themselves.
A cosmic joke!

 

[Aloysium]

Re:
" a universe of atoms
an atom in the universe."

I’ve posted this before. Love to get back to it:

htwins.net/scale2/

 

[inocente]

It is sufficient to know what’s necessary for life on this planet to calculate the probability of its existence elsewhere. Scientists are not unaware of the nature of the universe.

We don’t even know if life is limited to carbon.

Christianity and science are not mutually exclusive. If the universe is God’s handiwork there must be evidence of its divine origin, value and purpose.

As I said, we should be grateful to Christians who try to find things out rather than follow Klinghoffer into his wilderness.

Another false dilemma!

A false dilemma is to offer two choices as if they are the only options. There are many alternative actions when someone has an unexplained remission from a disease. But it remains that the immoral thing to do is call it a miracle and go no further, while the right thing to do is to match it with similar cases and try to find a common denominator, since that could lead to a cure for everyone else with the disease.

That belief doesn’t tally with the view that His followers are so easily led astray by increased exposure to other cultures.

Unless you assume other cultures are darkness. But I think you’ve mixed up two threads.

 

[tonyrey]

It is sufficient to know what’s necessary for life on this planet to calculate the probability of its existence elsewhere. Scientists are not unaware of the nature of the universe.

It wouldn’t make the slightest difference! It would have nothing to do with the improbability of life similar to ours.

Christianity and science are not mutually exclusive. If the universe is God’s handiwork there must be evidence of its divine origin, value and purpose.

As I said, we should be grateful to Christians who try to find things out rather than follow Klinghoffer into his wilderness.

And even more grateful to all the great apologists who have followed the example of Jesus in pointing out the evidence for divine origin, value and purpose of our existence.

Another false dilemma!

A false dilemma is to offer two choices as if they are the only options. There are many alternative actions when someone has an unexplained remission from a disease. But it remains that the immoral thing to do is call it a miracle and go no further, while the right thing to do is to match it with similar cases and try to find a common denominator, since that could lead to a cure for everyone else with the disease.

The assumption that belief in miracles precludes further investigation is unwarranted.

That belief doesn’t tally with the view that His followers are so easily led astray by increased exposure to other cultures.

Unless you assume other cultures are darkness.

Why did you bring up the subject of increased exposure to other cultures?

But I think you’ve mixed up two threads.

They are not unrelated.

 

[inocente]

I’m not sure I agree or disagree with poetry.

I read your post while having coffee this morning and started a sort of analysis of the poem.

Every morning I walk through a park area to get to work.
Seasons come and go, day after day.
In summer, my shirt can be drenched in sweat.
Last week, I got a bit of frostbite as the wind cut through too flimsy wool pants.

I told my son to scatter my ashes on that path as a blessing
to the birds and the trees, to all those whom I have passed
in my prayers and mediations over some two thousand hours walking.
He wants me to be buried next to my wife, where the plaque shows no date for my eventual demise.
Scadalous, petty, mean-spirited interactions between myself and the owner of the family plot have rendered this not an option available to myself.
I will be dead; at that point my son will do what he will do.

On my trek today, my head was thinking, my heart led me elsewhere.

The trampled snow
snap, crackles, pops
under resolute boots.

Elsewhere, the sun,
teeny, tiny sparkles,
dances on white pillows
cuddling sleeping grey trees.

A smile separates bushy whiskers,
cheeks reprieved
from cold windy gusts.

Contrast the feelings between those elicited by the poem and my collection of words.
Fenyman, alone, on the beach could be anywhere, because he is in his thoughts.
Intellectual conceptualizations take him out of the moment and into the realm of ideas.

Considerations of objective reality reveal themselves as absolute subjectivity.
Over the punch line, a huddle of Zen monks giggle amongst themselves.
A cosmic joke!

I find my main concern there is wanting you to patch things up with the owner of the family plot, if only because of another poem, psalm 133 )How good and pleasant it is / when God’s people live together in unity).

I’m not sure Fenyman was considering objective reality. Even though he could put together a fairly detailed narrative from the very beginning of the universe right up to him standing there, he still wondered at wondering. Fenyman, the scientist, finds mystery in what he knows while the guy quoted in the OP, the non-scientist, finds certainty in what he doesn’t know.

Maybe that’s what’s called poetic irony.

 

[inocente]

It wouldn’t make the slightest difference! It would have nothing to do with the improbability of life similar to ours.

The claim in the OP is “there are more than 200 known parameters necessary for a planet to support life – every single one of which must be perfectly met, or the whole thing falls apart.”

It says nothing about “life similar to ours”.

btw Can anyone link these “200 known parameters”?

And even more grateful to all the great apologists who have followed the example of Jesus in pointing out the evidence for divine origin, value and purpose of our existence.

That may be a Catholic thing. Sola scriptura bro.

The assumption that belief in miracles precludes further investigation is unwarranted.

Miraculous healings at religious sites such as Lourdes have been scientifically documented. Do you know of any evidence that they were cross-matched with spontaneous remissions elsewhere (for instance in ordinary hospitals worldwide) with the objective of finding a cure?

Why did you bring up the subject of increased exposure to other cultures?

I didn’t. That conversation isn’t on this thread.

 

[tonyrey]

*It wouldn’t make the slightest difference! It would have nothing to do with the improbability of life similar to ours.
*

What is the point of discussing imaginary forms of life? It amounts to an appeal to ignorance.

btw Can anyone link these “200 known parameters”?

Linked to what? And what is the purpose of that question?

And even more grateful to all the great apologists who have followed the example of Jesus in pointing out the evidence for divine origin, value and purpose of our existence.

That may be a Catholic thing. Sola scriptura bro.

Do you reject the teaching of Jesus about the evidence for divine origin, value and purpose of our existence or consider it insignificant?.

That conversation isn’t on this thread.

It doesn’t alter the fact that your implication that Catholic specialists neglect their scientific duty is false and tallies with your denigration of Christians.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Even though he could put together a fairly detailed narrative from the very beginning of the universe right up to him standing there, he still wondered at wondering. Fenyman, the scientist, finds mystery in what he knows . . .

I agree that he speaks not of objective reality in his narrative that does not include humanity or God, but “mountains of molecules, each stupidly minding it’s own business”. Using the symbols of materialism, Fenyman expresses his wonder at what is, as he understands it.

Btw: Some things only God can change, some only we can. His will be done.

 

[inocente]

Btw: Some things only God can change, some only we can. His will be done.

With God’s help you can patch things up with the owner of the family plot. With God all things are possible.

 

[inocente]

What is the point of discussing imaginary forms of life? It amounts to an appeal to ignorance.

No it isn’t . We don’t know whether there is life on other planets, it’s all imaginary.

Linked to what? And what is the purpose of that question?

The quote in your OP makes the claim that “Today there are more than 200 known parameters necessary for a planet to support life – every single one of which must be perfectly met, or the whole thing falls apart.”

I want to see these more than 200 parameters, since if they don’t exist the claim is no more than hot air.

Do you reject the teaching of Jesus about the evidence for divine origin, value and purpose of our existence or consider it insignificant?

I joined the thread to discuss your OP and am not in the mood to pander to off-topic personal questions due to your next remark.

It doesn’t alter the fact that your implication that Catholic specialists neglect their scientific duty is false and tallies with your denigration of Christians.

I can’t make any sense of that. Please explain why you think that or withdraw the remark, and if you’re still jumping threads then read the stickies.

 

[tonyrey]

No it isn’t . We don’t know whether there is life on other planets, it’s all imaginary.

The quote in your OP makes the claim that “Today there are more than 200 known parameters necessary for a planet to support life – every single one of which must be perfectly met, or the whole thing falls apart.”

I want to see these more than 200 parameters, since if they don’t exist the claim is no more than hot air.

I joined the thread to discuss your OP and am not in the mood to pander to off-topic personal questions due to your next remark.

I can’t make any sense of that. Please explain why you think that or withdraw the remark, and if you’re still jumping threads then read the stickies.

I’m not in the mood to pander to your continued evasions…

 

[Aloysium]

With God’s help you can patch things up . . . With God all things are possible.

One cannot patch up what never existed to be broken.

Actually, I am not sure we are required to patch things up.

Luke 6: 27-37 “But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you. . . “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you.

We must try to reformulate a relationship gone awry into one based on love. To do so generally involves sacrifice. I do not believe this entails giving away what belongs to one’s children. Some things are won in court, others are just too personal, in too bad taste to do likewise.

Matt 18: 21-22 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

When you’ve forgiven seven times and there is no reason to remain available to be subjected to yet another seven:

Luke 5:9, Mark 6:11, Matt 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

I am writing this not to portray myself as saintly nor to detail the thread. It is to demonstrate how far reality is from:

“mountains of molecules, each stupidly minding it’s own business”.

 

[inocente]

I’m not in the mood to pander to your continued evasions…

I’ve not evaded once, whereas your capability to duck and dive is wondrously dizzying.

It doesn’t alter the fact that your implication that Catholic specialists neglect their scientific duty is false and tallies with your denigration of Christians.

That is a serious allegation which I asked you to substantiate. I take your refusal to do so as your admission that it was false.

Next time you get the urge to jump threads to pursue some trumped-up vendetta, or to insult other posters and question the sincerity of their faith, remember the Pope’s words of last week “If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others.” That’s not exactly turning the other cheek but like the Pope said, it’s human nature. It would be cowardly to make unsubstantiated allegations on the internet which you wouldn’t say face to face for fear of the physical consequences.

Please remember that Christians answer to Christ, not tonyrey. “For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”

Perhaps you can fix your dark mood by eating a biscuit to raise your blood sugar, but if you want to chat by pm then go ahead. :coffeeread:

 

[inocente]

One cannot patch up what never existed to be broken.

Actually, I am not sure we are required to patch things up.

We must try to reformulate a relationship gone awry into one based on love. To do so generally involves sacrifice. I do not believe this entails giving away what belongs to one’s children. Some things are won in court, others are just too personal, in too bad taste to do likewise.

When you’ve forgiven seven times and there is no reason to remain available to be subjected to yet another seven:

Well, I don’t know the circumstances. If you’ve done what you can and can’t do anymore then agreed, shake off the dust from your feet, walk on.

I am writing this not to portray myself as saintly nor to detail the thread. It is to demonstrate how far reality is from:
“mountains of molecules, each stupidly minding it’s own business”.

In context, he writes:

“There are the rushing waves
mountains of molecules
each stupidly minding its own business
trillions apart
yet forming white surf in unison.”

A wave is a mountain of trillions of molecules. They are stupid, they are slaves to blind forces. Each one of them can be separated out and isolated, minding its own business, yet they act together in unison, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Surely all poetry other than the greeting card variety is about communicating a reality to others? You might search for the poem within your reality and not find it, but he’s not lying or delusional so I don’t believe you have the right to censor his reality and dictate that only the poems you like can speak of reality.

An imperfectly remembered poem I saw somewhere is a play on “blinded by the light”:

Light
shines around them.
So bright!
They cannot see.