Physical or Spiritual?

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I was raised in a Lutheran Church, so I am sure you can imagine what I have been taught about the Catholic Church! lol. I have been away from the Lutherans for some time, and worship with a Non-denominational church. And I have a question concerning the Eucharist and your understanding.

Clearly, the Scripture tells us that it become Christs body and blood. I was taught that the Catholic teaches it becomes the ‘physical’ body and blood. Is that correct, or do you believe it is the spiritual body and blood?

Peace
 
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facedown:
I was raised in a Lutheran Church, so I am sure you can imagine what I have been taught about the Catholic Church! lol. I have been away from the Lutherans for some time, and worship with a Non-denominational church. And I have a question concerning the Eucharist and your understanding.

Clearly, the Scripture tells us that it become Christs body and blood. I was taught that the Catholic teaches it becomes the ‘physical’ body and blood. Is that correct, or do you believe it is the spiritual body and blood?

Peace
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Open the new testament and start reading from John 6… 👍
 
Hi there,

I guess I’m a little confused as to what the difference is supposed to be between Christ’s physical body and Christ’s spiritual body. Do you mean Christ’s material body vs Christ’s immaterial soul? Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ - so you are receiving both the physical and spiritual aspects of Christ when you receive the Eucharist.
 
prodromos, thank you, but I am sure you are aware that flesh is not allowed to enter heaven? I COr 15:50. John 3:6 tells us that only the Spirit gives birth to spirit. Do you believe that Christ is siting at the right hand of the Father in what we know of as a ‘physical’ body, with what we call ‘flesh and blood’?

Why thank you spaceghost, I wouldn’t have thought of opening my Bible! LOL Good passage to take in is verse 63.
What are your thoughts?

Minerva, I apologize, I meant not to confuse. Yes, I am asking if you understand the bread to become the literal, physical, material body of Christ when taken, and if you understand the wine to become the literal, physical and material blood of Christ. Or do you understand these to be spiritual in nature.

If you understand it to be physical, how do the above passages bring light to this topic?
 
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Minerva:
Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ - so you are receiving both the physical and spiritual aspects of Christ when you receive the Eucharist.
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Good answer.

:gopray2: Alleluia! Praise God for the Eucharist! :gopray2:
 
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facedown:
Yes, I am asking if you understand the bread to become the literal, physical, material body of Christ when taken, and if you understand the wine to become the literal, physical and material blood of Christ. Or do you understand these to be spiritual in nature.
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Catholics believe in transubstantiation, where the inherent substance is transfromed from bread and wine into Christ’s body & blood while it maintains the appearance of bread and wine (to all of our physical senses).

Are we receiving the physical body and blood of the Resurrected Jesus? - Yes.

Are we receiving the soul of the Resurrected Jesus? - Yes.

Are we receiving the divinity of the Resurrected Jesus? - Yes.

So both physical and spiritual.
 
facedown,

Yes Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father with a body that is, for lack of a better word, physical. We could touch him if we were in Heaven. For Christ resurrected physically and went up into heaven physically. Christ also was physically incarnate and physically suffered and died for us. Physical things, things we can touch and feel and pick up with our hands, play an indispensible role in our salvation. To try and have CHristianity without the physical is treading very close to Gnosticism. As for the passages you mentioned, the John passage is talking about Baptism, which is what Catholics believe is “being born again” (and Lutherans too, I’m pretty sure, as my husband used to be Lutheran). We need to be born again by the power of the holy spirit - our merely fleshly physical births are not enough. The Corinthians passage is talking about the resurrection of the dead. It has always been taught by Christians, Catholic and Protestant, that our bodies will be raised at the end of time. In fact I know some pentecostals who said that no dead people are aware of God yet because they don’t have their bodies back yet! (This is NOT Catholic belief, but it proves my point about Protestant belief in the physicality of heaven) What Paul is distinguishing between is our corruptible earthly bodies and our incorruptible heavenly, resurrected bodies. He doesn’t say that the resurrected bodies aren’t material - just that they are incorruptible. They will still be physical, we won’t just be ghosts floating around in heaven.
hope this helps
 
Thanks. I never said that heavenly was not physical in some sense. But flesh? I still don’t understand what Scripture you are using for this. Let me try to explain by showing some passages:

Genesis 2:7, life was not in the flesh, but when God breathed in
Genesis 3:9 to dust our bodies will return
Ephesians 6:12 tells us that the spiritual forces are not flesh and blood, that there is a difference between the heavenly realm and the physical realm
John 3:6 flesh gives birth to flesh (which returns to dust), but Spirit gives birth to spirit (which is eternal)
John 6:63 the flesh counts for nothing. Only the Spirit gives life
Romans 8:6 death is in the mind of the man who is set on the flesh
Galatians 6:8 if you sow flesh you will reap destruction
Philippians 3:3 there is no confidence in the flesh
Romans 7:5 when we were controlled by the flesh, we bore the fruit of death
1 Cor 15:50 flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, because it is perishable.
1 Cor 15:35-44 clearly states that our resurrected body will not be natural, but spiritual.

So, what/where do you understand that Christs body, in heaven, if flesh and blood? Where do you understand that our spiritual bodies will be composed of something that is perishable?

I would almost presume that our belief(s) are the same, only using different words; however, I am not sure.

This all relates to the original question, as to how/why would the Eucharist become something that does not give life, and is perishable? I understood one earlier poster to bascially state that it did become Christs literal Body; but that it was not ‘flesh’. What is the difference between this and saying that it becomes Christs Spiritual Body?
 
facedown said:
1 Cor 15:35-44 clearly states that our resurrected body will not be natural, but spiritual.
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From this scripture I Cor 15:35-58, I get something totally different than your intrepretation. The focus is how here our physical bodies are corruptible, while in heaven our physical bodies are incorruptible. Likewise our soul (spirit), capable of be corrupted here (by sinning) are incorruptible in heaven.

United with Christ (totally), we become incorruptible like him when we enter Heaven, in our physicality and our spirituality.

Natural is not synomous with physical. It means of the physical universe (of its laws). Physical is this context is refering to the material aspects of a substance. The opposite of natural is supernatural, that is going beyond the laws of nature. We will have a supernatural physical body sharing in the divinity of Christ.

Try Romans 8:1-13 focusing on 8:11.
 
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facedown:
As to how/why would the Eucharist become something that does not give life
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The Eucharist does give life and gives it abundantly.
 
Thanks.

How do you understand 1 Cor 15 “The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.” to be talking about flesh and blood? This entire passage is speaking about the differences between our fleshly, and our heavenly bodies. Ones if of the dust, one is not.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Again, how is this a flesh and blood body?

“Natural is not synomous with physical” I agree, and that is something I have stated. However, what I am hearing is that our heavenly body (which I agree is ‘physical’ is going to be flesh and blood. And I am simply asking where this thought comes from.

“The Eucharist does give life and gives it abundantly” The Eucharist being Christ who declared Himself as the Living Bread? Absolutley! I agree 100%.
But that does not answer my question.
 
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facedown:
How do you understand 1 Cor 15 “The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.” to be talking about flesh and blood? This entire passage is speaking about the differences between our fleshly, and our heavenly bodies. Ones if of the dust, one is not.
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I would use earthly and heavenly bodies, where one is corruptible (as is all within the physical universe) and the other is incorruptible (supernatural).
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facedown:
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Again, how is this a flesh and blood body?
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Our mortal bodies are composed of flesh (which for them include our skin, muscles, tendons, organs, bones), blood, and other fluids (which they do not understand at the time).

Given that “mortal bodies” are used in the verse, I take that to be the corruptible physical body being transformed into an incorruptible physical body with equivilant parts, thus of (incorruptible) flesh and blood.
 
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facedown:
However, what I am hearing is that our heavenly body (which I agree is ‘physical’ is going to be flesh and blood. And I am simply asking where this thought comes from.
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Thanks, I now understand you to say something different. I suppose when people use different words, miscommunication is bound to happen. I understand us both to believe the same.

So how does this equate to you answer here “Are we receiving the physical body and blood of the Resurrected Jesus? - Yes.”

When you say ‘physical body’ are you saying Christs body that “include our skin, muscles, tendons, organs, bones”? or you saying the samy ‘physical’ body that is represented “incorruptible physical body”

I presume you to believe that the phsyical nature the bread turns into is the incorruptable, immortal, spiritual body.
 
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facedown:
Thanks, I now understand you to say something different. I suppose when people use different words, miscommunication is bound to happen. I understand us both to believe the same.
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Babeling the Language, one of the enemy’s tricks he uses on us. See the thread on Tactics of the Enemy.
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facedown:
When you say ‘physical body’ are you saying Christs body that “include our skin, muscles, tendons, organs, bones”? or you saying the samy ‘physical’ body that is represented “incorruptible physical body”

I presume you to believe that the phsyical nature the bread turns into is the incorruptable, immortal, spiritual body.
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Let me give you the definition of Transubstantiation that theologians with 2000 years of study have developed:
The scholastic term used to designate the unique change of the Eucharistic bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. “Transubstantiation” indicates that throught the consecration of the bread and the wine there occurs the change of the entire substance of the bread into the Body of Christ and the entire substance of wine into the Blood of Christ - even through though the appearances or “species” of bread and wine appear.
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from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We have nothing to compare this too, as nothing else undergoes this form of change. Catholics do not believe that the Body of Christ is bread anymore, nor the Blood of Christ is wine anymore. They have been transformed.

We also believe in resurrection of the physical body transformed into an incorruptible form. It is Jesus’ resurrected Body and Blood that we recieve in the Eucharist.

It is interesting to know that where miracles of the Eucharist where the appearance also changed, the Body of Christ was in the “species” (appearance) of human heart muscle (which the ancients would have called flesh.)

Thus from a physical bread and wine (with no spiritual aspect) to the physical Body and physical Blood (with the spiritual aspects of Soul and Divinity) of the Risen Lord normally in the appearance of bread and wine (but not the substance).
 
35 But someone may say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?”
36 You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies.
37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;
38 but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body.
-New American Bible: 1 Corinthians 35-38
as posted on www.vatican.va

As far as the Eucharist goes, it is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ. For He did say, this IS My body, which will be given up for you. Therefore, we know that the Eucharist is His body and blood, soul and divinity. We know that the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine, and transubstantiate into His body and blood. This is without question, the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think we should discuss the scripture passage for what it says, rather than continue to cite it without using its words.
We know that we will have a heavenly body, like Christ has a heavenly body. Whatever form that takes, we will find out.
I think we should focus less on what Heaven will look like, and focus more on getting there.
God Bless,

Justin
 
space ghost:
Open the new testament and start reading from John 6… 👍
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I cannot find the wine mentioned with the bread in John 6. It must be because this is the passover time, and a year before Jesus has the Last Supper(instituting the Lord’s Supper) the night before his death on the cross. John 6, therefore, has nothing to do with Lord’s Supper, communion or the eucharist(or any other name we give the obedience to the Lord’s words…Do this in remberence of me)
 
Are we receiving the physical body and blood of the Resurrected Jesus? - not sure- I believe in the Real Presense, but PHYSICAL, to me, means it can be detected by the senses (although it may require the use of technology- i.e. microscopes, etc.). We can see, feel, smell, and taste the accidents of bread and wine, but it would not look, feel, smell, or taste any different than non-consecrated bread and wine. I’m not sure physical is the right word here, but I cannot think of another word.

Are we receiving the soul of the Resurrected Jesus? - Yes

Are we receiving the divinity of the Resurrected Jesus? - Yes
 
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exodus:
I cannot find the wine mentioned with the bread in John 6. It must be because this is the passover time, and a year before Jesus has the Last Supper(instituting the Lord’s Supper) the night before his death on the cross. John 6, therefore, has nothing to do with Lord’s Supper, communion or the eucharist(or any other name we give the obedience to the Lord’s words…Do this in remberence of me)
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That’s your personal interpretation.
 
I would not use the term “physical” to describe the nature of the Eucharist. It is substantially the"real" body, blood, soul, and divinity, ie. the whole and resurrected incarnate Christ. Yet the accidents remain that of bread and wine. As such, I don’t think that physical is the best terminology to employ as it is not quite accurate. That is not to say that the presence is merely spiritual, however. I find that this is where the proper word is “sacramental” presence, for that is the nature in which the reality of Christ’s presence exists Eucharistically and is presented to us.
 
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