Pianist playing pipe organ?

[Cat]

I’ve been a member of CAF for several years. I converted to Catholicism in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism, but I was checking out CAF long before the actual RCIA and conversion process.

Over the years, quite often people on this forum, especially in this section and in the traditional section, have insisted that people who play the piano should be able to play the pipe organ, too.

I am an excellent pianist who plays professionally (accompanist). I have a classical background and have some pretty heavy classical works in my repertoire. I play for Masses whenever I am needed.

Since I am aware of the preference of the Catholic Church for the pipe organ, I signed up for a Pipe Organ Encounter, a week of classes, private lessons, and practice to learn how to play the pipe organ.

I just spent my first day at this event.

I have this to say to all of you who think that a pianist can sit down and play the pipe organ–

you are completely utterly wrong, and I want you to never, ever say such a thing again. It’s just wrong.

The pedals have me completely messed up. It actually hurts my foot to play them, and I have no concept of the intervals on the pedal.

I can play one hand, and it sounds like doo doo. I can play two hands together and it sounds like doo doo and vomit. When I add the pedals, it’s a crime and I should be stopped. It certainly doesn’t sound like music.

I think that if I practiced for an hour or so several days a week, and had a private lesson once a week, by the end of one year, I probably will be able to play a hymn, one hymn. It will be halting and rough, but I can probably get through it.

OK? Am I making this clear?

IMO, if the Catholic Church wants pipe organ, they’d better get on the stick and start recruiting more children to learn to play, or at the end of a decade, there will be virtually no pipe organists left to play.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Hehe. I could have told you that without you learning on your own. Can a pianist learn to play the pipe organ? I don’t have a universal answer to that because obviously there will be some with the ability and some who do not. If you do have the ability, you’re not going to learn it in one week, but you have to be able to dedicate a fair amount of time to it.

Can a pianist play a pipe organ without any training? Not likely. The organ, much to many people’s surprise, is nothing like a piano in the technique required and most people who switch from a piano to an organ will sound like they are playing chopsticks. I had to quickly show a mediocre piano player how to operate the organ once (much to my dismay, as the pastor didn’t want to pay for a good substitute) and I have to say that I’m glad I wasn’t there that weekend to hear it!

For me, I think I was lucky. When I started organ lessons, I was able to start playing hymns with pedal within a few weeks, plus some other non-hymn works (like Boelmann’s Prayer to Our Lady and Menuet Gothique), but I expect not everyone can just pick something up that fast. Then again, perhaps I just had the time to do it that other people didn’t. I don’t know. But there are people out there with the talent. They just have to be found and encouraged and they also need to feel that there’s a need for them.

But I would maintain that as long as we’re satisfied with stuff like pianos and guitars, that alone is going to be a discouragement to future organists. I wrote another post about that in the guitar thread. Currently, there’s the thinking that other instruments work just as well, so why even look for organists? It’s sort of like the altar girl/altar boy situation, though that’s had enough threads of its own already.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ve been a member of CAF for several years. I converted to Catholicism in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism, but I was checking out CAF long before the actual RCIA and conversion process.

Over the years, quite often people on this forum, especially in this section and in the traditional section, have insisted that people who play the piano should be able to play the pipe organ, too.

I am an excellent pianist who plays professionally (accompanist). I have a classical background and have some pretty heavy classical works in my repertoire. I play for Masses whenever I am needed.

Since I am aware of the preference of the Catholic Church for the pipe organ, I signed up for a Pipe Organ Encounter, a week of classes, private lessons, and practice to learn how to play the pipe organ.

I just spent my first day at this event.

I have this to say to all of you who think that a pianist can sit down and play the pipe organ–

you are completely utterly wrong, and I want you to never, ever say such a thing again. It’s just wrong.

The pedals have me completely messed up. It actually hurts my foot to play them, and I have no concept of the intervals on the pedal.

I can play one hand, and it sounds like doo doo. I can play two hands together and it sounds like doo doo and vomit. When I add the pedals, it’s a crime and I should be stopped. It certainly doesn’t sound like music.

I think that if I practiced for an hour or so several days a week, and had a private lesson once a week, by the end of one year, I probably will be able to play a hymn, one hymn. It will be halting and rough, but I can probably get through it.

OK? Am I making this clear?

IMO, if the Catholic Church wants pipe organ, they’d better get on the stick and start recruiting more children to learn to play, or at the end of a decade, there will be virtually no pipe organists left to play.

Oh, goodness, are you ever right! Some pianists may not find the change-over from piano to organ very difficult, especially if they took it on rather early in their training, but it is easy to believe that someone with a long piano career and no organ experience will be in for an unpleasant shock! The more you come to be in command of the dynamics of the piano, the more you will be in command of everything an organ WILL NOT do!

Even without taking the pedals into consideration, the two instruments require very different things of the instrumentalist’s fingers. The key to piano has to do with how you strike and vacate the keys, not just that you hit the right one at the right time. What matters in organ music is that you not only strike the key at the right time, but that you move off of it at the right time. It’s ON/OFF, though. The dynamics are totally different, particularly if you don’t want to sound as if you’re playing the Mighty Wurlitzer for the 7th inning stretch.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Oh, goodness, are you ever right! Some pianists may not find the change-over from piano to organ very difficult, especially if they took it on rather early in their training, but it is easy to believe that someone with a long piano career and no organ experience will be in for an unpleasant shock! The more you come to be in command of the dynamics of the piano, the more you will be in command of everything an organ WILL NOT do!

Even without taking the pedals into consideration, the two instruments require very different things of the instrumentalist’s fingers. The key to piano has to do with how you strike and vacate the keys, not just that you hit the right one at the right time. What matters in organ music is that you not only strike the key at the right time, but that you move off of it at the right time. It’s ON/OFF, though. The dynamics are totally different, particularly if you don’t want to sound as if you’re playing the Mighty Wurlitzer for the 7th inning stretch.

It’s fun, though, that just by timing how long to hold down a note, we can make it seem like we’re playing a note louder or softer. Also, each organ is a different monster in its own right with a different touch, different sound, and different look. Plus, they all have their quirks. And then there’s the building in which you’re playing, which can make a huge difference in how the organ sounds, yet doesn’t effect a piano or other instrument so much. But all this is part of the fun of an organ. It’s a huge beast and taming it is an interesting ride!

 

[nickybr38]

I’ve been a member of CAF for several years. I converted to Catholicism in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism, but I was checking out CAF long before the actual RCIA and conversion process.

Over the years, quite often people on this forum, especially in this section and in the traditional section, have insisted that people who play the piano should be able to play the pipe organ, too.

I am an excellent pianist who plays professionally (accompanist). I have a classical background and have some pretty heavy classical works in my repertoire. I play for Masses whenever I am needed.

Since I am aware of the preference of the Catholic Church for the pipe organ, I signed up for a Pipe Organ Encounter, a week of classes, private lessons, and practice to learn how to play the pipe organ.

I just spent my first day at this event.

I have this to say to all of you who think that a pianist can sit down and play the pipe organ–

you are completely utterly wrong, and I want you to never, ever say such a thing again. It’s just wrong.

The pedals have me completely messed up. It actually hurts my foot to play them, and I have no concept of the intervals on the pedal.

I can play one hand, and it sounds like doo doo. I can play two hands together and it sounds like doo doo and vomit. When I add the pedals, it’s a crime and I should be stopped. It certainly doesn’t sound like music.

I think that if I practiced for an hour or so several days a week, and had a private lesson once a week, by the end of one year, I probably will be able to play a hymn, one hymn. It will be halting and rough, but I can probably get through it.

OK? Am I making this clear?

IMO, if the Catholic Church wants pipe organ, they’d better get on the stick and start recruiting more children to learn to play, or at the end of a decade, there will be virtually no pipe organists left to play.

Amen. I too am a pianist (although not as accomplished as you) and I have tried the organ. It is NO simple thing. I am, quite frankly, in awe of people who play it and play it well. Good for them!

Thanks for sharing this info with those who just don’t know.

 

[Erich]

Over the years, quite often people on this forum, especially in this section and in the traditional section, have insisted that people who play the piano should be able to play the pipe organ, too.

I suspect the underlying assumption is, “well, both have keyboards” – but as you point out, that’s where the similarity ends.

Several years ago, I had the opportunity to learn to play the nyckelharpa (Swedish keyed fiddle) – an instrument I like to describe as a cross between the violin, the guitar, and the piano. Others have described it as a cross between a typewriter and your grandpa’s old crackly fiddle. Now, I don’t play the violin or the guitar, but I used to play the piano – which is the only reason I was able to navigate the keys of the nyckelharpa. That said, I would get flustered looking for the three notes that did not have corresponding keys (because of course, on a violin or a guitar, one does not need a key or a fret to play the open strings)!

Note that I said “navigate the keys” and not “play the nyckelharpa” … here is what a nyckelharpa sounds like when played by someone who can play it:

youtube.com/watch?v=Zs3aUCM8BX8
youtube.com/watch?v=P3zZszdvOGY

These have close-ups of the mechanism and strings:

youtube.com/watch?v=XAx6CcGkge0
youtube.com/watch?v=GNwSj7FW9I4

 

[convert999]

I laughed out loud when I read your post, Cat. I am also a professional pianist and teacher, and I’m sorry to say I am a horrible, abysmal, pathetic organist. Everything we train piano students to do is counterproductive on an organ. Actually, playing hymns is much harder for me than anything else, because the quick chord changes necessitate quick pedal changes, and that is bad news for me. I have thought about taking organ lessons, but my limited exposure to the organ convinced me that there is no way that I have time. By the time I teach six piano students in a row the thought of going to the church and practicing the organ is just not appealing. I feel lucky if I get to practice the piano!

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I laughed out loud when I read your post, Cat. I am also a professional pianist and teacher, and I’m sorry to say I am a horrible, abysmal, pathetic organist. Everything we train piano students to do is counterproductive on an organ. Actually, playing hymns is much harder for me than anything else, because the quick chord changes necessitate quick pedal changes, and that is bad news for me. I have thought about taking organ lessons, but my limited exposure to the organ convinced me that there is no way that I have time. By the time I teach six piano students in a row the thought of going to the church and practicing the organ is just not appealing. I feel lucky if I get to practice the piano!

It also works the other way around. I find myself using organ technique when I play the piano and making a relatively simple piece needlessly difficult because I’m automatically making finger substitutions to play legato instead of just using the damper pedal! Habits die hard, and it takes a lot of work to prevent the habits from one instrument from transferring to the next.

 

[convert999]

You should have been there the day I tried to use the “damper pedal” on the organ. The sudden fortissimo practically blew me off the bench. Fortunately this was just a practice session.

 

[JButky]

I must be different. I didn’t start organ until I was 30. Don’t be discouraged…Practice and perseverance are the trick. It was tough at first, but once you start to get the hang of it you’ll begin to progress really quickly.

Afterall, Many church organists are merely mugged pianists!

Joe B

 

[EasterJoy]

You should have been there the day I tried to use the “damper pedal” on the organ. The sudden fortissimo practically blew me off the bench.

Fortunately this was just a practice session.

(Hey, 24 hr later and you would’ve blown the mitre off of the Archbishop! )

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

You should have been there the day I tried to use the “damper pedal” on the organ. The sudden fortissimo practically blew me off the bench. Fortunately this was just a practice session.

We all do that, and even those who have been playing the organ for some time make noticeable mistakes. I remember once hitting the toe piston that set to “General 6” (loudest setting with full stops and blaring trumpet) and boy was that a surprise!

 

[ProVobis]

You should have been there the day I tried to use the “damper pedal” on the organ. The sudden fortissimo practically blew me off the bench. Fortunately this was just a practice session.

What blew me was the delay in hearing the pipes after you depress the keys. I also think it helps to have narrow feet (to fit into narrow shoes) to play the pedals. Hitting the right pedal key is hard with wide feet. Have to resort to a lot of toe-heel-toe-heel playing.

One organist I know plays the pedals without shoes. Says you wouldn’t play the upper keyboard with your gloves so why play the pedals with your shoes.

 

[EasterJoy]

What blew me was the delay in hearing the pipes after you depress the keys. I also think it helps to have narrow feet (to fit into narrow shoes) to play the pedals. Hitting the right pedal key is hard with wide feet. Have to resort to a lot of toe-heel-toe-heel playing.

One organist I know plays the pedals without shoes. Says you wouldn’t play the upper keyboard with your gloves so why play the pedals with your shoes.

I didn’t take organ lessons for long, but I did take them. I thought the shoes made it easier, but I have kind of skinny feet. I agree with her. Whatever works for you. Pretty is as pretty does.

 

[convert999]

Part of my problem (I think) is that I am 4’11". I have to perch precariously on the edge of the bench to even REACH the pedals. I am always expecting to fall off. I think I need a Velcro bench, with pants to match…

 

[Sheadad]

What blew me was the delay in hearing the pipes after you depress the keys. I also think it helps to have narrow feet (to fit into narrow shoes) to play the pedals. Hitting the right pedal key is hard with wide feet. Have to resort to a lot of toe-heel-toe-heel playing.

One organist I know plays the pedals without shoes. Says you wouldn’t play the upper keyboard with your gloves so why play the pedals with your shoes.

This thread is so fun for me to read because I started playing the organ when I was about 7 years old. I played for my first Mass when I was 8. I actually had a hard time going to the piano after learning the organ. I just had a hard time with how hard you have to press and that there’s no volume pedal, so in order to get more volume, I have to “hit” the keys. My mom can masterfully play things like “The Messiah”, which is still beyond me. She removes her shoes when playing, so one of the choir members calls her “organ foot”.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not an organist, but I was a pianist (“was” because although I had 12 years of training, once I transferred my focus and training on classical voice, I no longer feel comfortable playing in front of people except my family.) Because I make my living singing and freelance all over the place, I do have the opportunity to work with quite a variety of different musicians… especially organists and pianists.

I agree with everyone that playing the organ is not as simple as some people think… ESPECIALLY if you are dealing with a real pipe organ. You can’t just learn it in a week. You need months and sometimes years to perfect the technique. Yes, I’ve worked with many pianists who had to play the organ, but never had any organ lessons and it is quite apparent that they don’t have the training. I’ve also worked with organists who accompanied me on piano and you can also tell the difference in training. Organists (at least the ones I’ve worked with), whose main instrument is really the organ, tend to play the piano rather choppy without much legato, nor do they really know how to make the piano “sing”.

Either way, it’s not as nice of a collaborative experience as it could be due to how these organists/pianists are not completely comfortable with the instrument they are playing and I can see how it can leave a listener cold about the organ and even about the piano.

Now, that’s not to say there are people out there who have incredible ability on both instruments. I’ve worked and known a number of them who are. But they either began learning both instruments when they were young or were older and fortunate to be able to pick up the instrument more easily than most or were just very determined and worked long and hard

 

[Sarabande]

What blew me was the delay in hearing the pipes after you depress the keys.

This is something I didn’t know about until I was talking with a few organists friends of mine. One of the more difficult pieces to play on the pipe organ they all agreed on was Mozart’s “Laudate Dominum” from his solemn vespers. It seems that the main reason being was because of the delay. In order to play it right, it has to be musically counterintuitive, having to actually play the downbeats ahead of when it is actually supposed to be played. It’s so much easier to play on the piano

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

What blew me was the delay in hearing the pipes after you depress the keys. I also think it helps to have narrow feet (to fit into narrow shoes) to play the pedals. Hitting the right pedal key is hard with wide feet. Have to resort to a lot of toe-heel-toe-heel playing.

One organist I know plays the pedals without shoes. Says you wouldn’t play the upper keyboard with your gloves so why play the pedals with your shoes.

The delay is not there for all organs. For instance, a couple of pipe organs I’ve played are modern and have an electric console so there’s no delay. I’ve also played an old tracker organ and on that there was a definite delay in sound which makes a fair amount of difference in the feel. As I said, each pipe organ has a character of its own.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The delay is not there for all organs. For instance, a couple of pipe organs I’ve played are modern and have an electric console so there’s no delay. I’ve also played an old tracker organ and on that there was a definite delay in sound which makes a fair amount of difference in the feel. As I said, each pipe organ has a character of its own.

And then there are melodeons. . .which, believe it or not, I actually played in a very small (non-Catholic) church for a wedding. . .foot bellows and all. Easier than the pipe organ at the Cathedral in Notre Dame de Paris though! (No, I didn’t really play that but I was permitted, very graciously, by the organist back in 1978 to play a few notes on the keyboards and to see how the pedal sounded and then to hear him play a piece by Faure that we were singing. I thought I was quite the talented little musician until I heard a REAL musician. Humility is good for the soul). . .