Pianist playing pipe organ?

[The_Curt_Jester]

And then there are melodeons. . .which, believe it or not, I actually played in a very small (non-Catholic) church for a wedding. . .foot bellows and all. Easier than the pipe organ at the Cathedral in Notre Dame de Paris though! (No, I didn’t really play that but I was permitted, very graciously, by the organist back in 1978 to play a few notes on the keyboards and to see how the pedal sounded and then to hear him play a piece by Faure that we were singing. I thought I was quite the talented little musician until I heard a REAL musician. Humility is good for the soul). . .

Speaking of permission, I obtained permission to play the organ at Rockefeller chapel. Unfortunately, I couldn’t that particular day because the organist only had one hour (the hour I was there) to practice a piece that the had to learn how to play. It was still fun listening though!

youtube.com/watch?v=A9RT3u6KoAE

Enjoy! The trumpets are absolutely ear-splitting when you hear them in person.

 

[TheMc]

This is something I didn’t know about until I was talking with a few organists friends of mine. One of the more difficult pieces to play on the pipe organ they all agreed on was Mozart’s “Laudate Dominum” from his solemn vespers. It seems that the main reason being was because of the delay. In order to play it right, it has to be musically counterintuitive, having to actually play the downbeats ahead of when it is actually supposed to be played. It’s so much easier to play on the piano

I love Mozart’s Laudate Dominum!!! We recently had a concert with his vespers, and the Laudate Dominum was also used at an ordination and first Mass recently. Very nice piece.

 

[TheMc]

Part of my problem (I think) is that I am 4’11". I have to perch precariously on the edge of the bench to even REACH the pedals. I am always expecting to fall off. I think I need a Velcro bench, with pants to match…

Haha!

 

[ProVobis]

Part of my problem (I think) is that I am 4’11". I have to perch precariously on the edge of the bench to even REACH the pedals. I am always expecting to fall off. I think I need a Velcro bench, with pants to match…

So who said you had to sit down to play?

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Part of my problem (I think) is that I am 4’11". I have to perch precariously on the edge of the bench to even REACH the pedals. I am always expecting to fall off. I think I need a Velcro bench, with pants to match…

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you don’t have an adjustable height bench. Those things are real luxuries! In the two places I’ve worked, I just had to put blocks of wood underneath the legs to adjust the height. Don’t think that being taller necessarily removes all feeling of falling of the bench, though. I’ve felt that many times myself, though generally only when playing all those pesky pedal passages by Bach. I wonder how many times HE fell off the bench?

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve felt that many times myself, though generally only when playing all those pesky pedal passages by Bach. I wonder how many times HE fell off the bench?

Didn’t you know that he was an acrobat and juggled plates while he was playing?

Just kidding, of course.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Didn’t you know that he was an acrobat and juggled plates while he was playing?

Just kidding, of course.

I’d pay to see that!

 

[Cat]

It also works the other way around. I find myself using organ technique when I play the piano and making a relatively simple piece needlessly difficult because I’m automatically making finger substitutions to play legato instead of just using the damper pedal! Habits die hard, and it takes a lot of work to prevent the habits from one instrument from transferring to the next.

I wondered about this. I know only a few organists who learned to play piano after they learned organ, and they say the same thing–it was hard for them.

 

[Cat]

I think something that’s actually making it harder is that all the musicians at this event who know me are saying, “Cat, you’re such an amazing pianist, you’ll be playing the organ in church in a few weeks!”

It’s embarrassing! I’m sure the person assigned to be my instructor is talking to all those people and saying, “Are you SURE she’s a good pianist? Are you thinking of someone else?”

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I would encourage everyone to send a copy of this thread to any pastor or music director who is considering replacing an organ with an electronic keyboard. Keyboards can often serve as good piano substitutes, but are not organs in any way. They make organ sounds to some degree (usually a choice of a small chapel organ or Westminster Abbey) but with no stops or pedals, and with weighted piano-like keys, it is impossible to play organ repertoire on a keyboard. I own an Alesis QS8, which is an excellent weighted-key synthesizer, but to play an organ toccata on it causes much pain in my arm muscles and there are no pedals.

I am a rarity in that I started on an organ before taking piano lessons, but with sufficient practice and desire, I believe that any accomplished pianist can master the organ. That being said, I still struggle with the accordion, because although they have the same kind of keyboard as an organ, albeit with smaller keys, playing it sideways somehow throws me off.

 

[Robintrinket]

I had to quickly show a mediocre piano player how to operate the organ once (much to my dismay, as the pastor didn’t want to pay for a good substitute) and I have to say that I’m glad I wasn’t there that weekend to hear it!

I think perfection or nothing is a bad attitude. It’s like saying if you have a bunch of bad singers in your church, you shouldn’t sing at all. Some people who haven’t had organ lessons play on the keyboard with their hands and don’t worry about the pedals, and actually sound pretty good. Of coarse, it takes a while of playing the organ before you can get it to sound smooth if you have been playing the piano. If you play piano, you know how to read/hit the notes right, so it is a HUGE help. You will be able to play the organ on the keyboard, it will just sound choppy. If your church is short on people to play for Mass, it will get the job done and give the congregation the notes to follow when they are singing. Of coarse, piano-playing volunteers with no experience with the organ will not sound as good as an actual organist who has had lessons and plays the pedals, but if a church is short an organists, it has to make do with what it has. It is great that these people are at least willing to try to help out.

 

[peterr]

In fact I don’t think so, but MS office 2007 and Office Ultimate 2007 it’s still good.

 

[Sarabande]

I love Mozart’s Laudate Dominum!!! We recently had a concert with his vespers, and the Laudate Dominum was also used at an ordination and first Mass recently. Very nice piece.

Yes, it’s gorgeous! I used it for my wedding since we had a choir sing and is one of my favorite pieces to sing as well. There is also an abridged version of it which cuts out the choir if a church does not have a choir.

Whenever I can, if the organist is good, (I’ve done this with organists/pianists who made a dog’s breakfast out of the accompaniment and it’s not pretty) I’ll make this suggestion to brides. They almost all love it immediately.

 

[ProVobis]

I would encourage everyone to send a copy of this thread to any pastor or music director who is considering replacing an organ with an electronic keyboard. Keyboards can often serve as good piano substitutes, but are not organs in any way. They make organ sounds to some degree (usually a choice of a small chapel organ or Westminster Abbey) but with no stops or pedals, and with weighted piano-like keys, it is impossible to play organ repertoire on a keyboard. I own an Alesis QS8, which is an excellent weighted-key synthesizer, but to play an organ toccata on it causes much pain in my arm muscles and there are no pedals.

Yes, many of these organs are electronic “counterfeits” (as E Power Biggs called them) but it’s been demonstrated that people are more inclined to sing to the organ than any other instrument, especially in larger crowds. Pianos are nice for concert halls and homes though.

 

[crazzeto]

Whatever, all instruments with keys are pretty much the same… Just like all stringed instruments are pretty much the same. So since I learned to play electric guitar in high school I guess that means I should be an accomplished violinest

 

[Cat]

I think perfection or nothing is a bad attitude. It’s like saying if you have a bunch of bad singers in your church, you shouldn’t sing at all. Some people who haven’t had organ lessons play on the keyboard with their hands and don’t worry about the pedals, and actually sound pretty good. Of coarse, it takes a while of playing the organ before you can get it to sound smooth if you have been playing the piano. If you play piano, you know how to read/hit the notes right, so it is a HUGE help. You will be able to play the organ on the keyboard, it will just sound choppy. If your church is short on people to play for Mass, it will get the job done and give the congregation the notes to follow when they are singing. Of coarse, piano-playing volunteers with no experience with the organ will not sound as good as an actual organist who has had lessons and plays the pedals, but if a church is short an organists, it has to make do with what it has. It is great that these people are at least willing to try to help out.

I don’t think you “get” my point with this thread.

You are entitled to your opinion about whether or not we have “bad attitudes” because we pianists are not willing to get up and play an organ and do a half-butted job of it.

But I will NOT offer any service to the Lord and His people that I can’t do with all of my heart and do reasonably well. It does not have to be perfect, but it has to be competent.

I think you would find very few real musicians who were willing to get up in front of people when they don’t have enough training, and play “notes.”

When I say that I played BADLY yesterday, I mean I sounded worse than my cats running across the keyboard. Do you REALLY think that someone like me should play the organ in Mass just because it’s an organ and not a slimy piano? Is the organ more important than the music itself?

It would be a lot cheaper for a parish to go to the local shelter and find a bunch of pretty cats and let them run across the organ keys and pedals (grease them with cat food first), if indeed having an organ is more important than having music in Mass. And I’m guessing that this would attract people to the Mass just to see the musical cats. Seriously, they would sound better (and look prettier!) than me at this time.

BTW, the faculty in my classes would disagree with you about “getting the job done” and “giving the congregation the notes.” In the Hymn Playing class yesterday, we learned all about how a congregation will lose trust in an organist if the instrument is not played well, and then the congregation will not sing. Just playing the notes is NOT adequate. Our job is to help the congregation sing, not just play notes.

On the piano, I am able to do all the things that the teacher discussed yesterday, and people sing when I play. But on the organ, at this point, I would make it more difficult for the congregation to worship God in music. So call it a “bad attitude” if you wish, but I choose to work for quite a while to learn some decent techniques before foisting myself upon a congregation.

 

[NPC]

Like others have said, it will take more than a week of lessons before you would be able to play the organ at Mass - as you found out, the technique is completely different from that of the piano. That said, it is extremely helpful to have spent some time at the piano before taking organ lessons - in fact, few organists will take on a student unless they have studied the piano to a reasonable degree. I had studied piano for about 8 - 9 years before I took my first organ lesson.

The organ will take some time to get used to - the touch is different, there are several manuals usually, there is a pedal-board, the sounds are different, the note only sounds for as long as the key is pressed, &c. &c. So you have to take things slowly - which can be frustrating for an already accomplished musician! The pedals will get easier to play with a bit of practice - initially there will likely be a tendency for the feet to follow what the left hand is playing, so one has to work on gaining independence of hands and feet. This means slow practice - playing pedals alone, then left hand and pedals, right hand and pedals, and then both hands and pedals. Eventually, you will get used to assigning the bass line of a hymn-tune to the pedals and your feet will just do their thing!

I would never recommend playing the organ without shoes. It often leads to sloppy playing as it will be difficult to play legato without a decent heel, especially for going smoothly from a “white” pedal note to a “black” one. Apart from this, playing on the pedals puts pressure on the feet, especially if one is playing on a mechanical-action instrument - playing the pedals requires far greater force and strength than playing the manuals, so it is good to have some shoes to “soften” the pressure on the sole of the foot. I myself use OrganMaster shoes which are specially designed for organists - they are narrow to avoid hitting more than one note at a time, they have a leather sole to allow sufficient grip while allowing the foot to slide along the pedal, and they have a decent heel in order to facilitate legato playing of large intervals.

On some organs there can be a time delay. This shouldn’t be an issue with mechanical-action instruments as the keys are directly connected to the valves by way of trackers, so the action is more immediate and precise. Even modern electric-action organs are very good with very little noticeable delay. However, organists have to get used to the issue of time delay - especially if they are required to accompany choirs at a distance, there could be a delay of a second or two. It just means that one has to be very disciplined and count with a very steady beat, which is no bad thing!

 

[convert999]

I don’t think you “get” my point with this thread.

I think you would find very few real musicians who were willing to get up in front of people when they don’t have enough training, and play “notes.”

I know what you mean. In fairness, though, what sounds terrible to us probably doesn’t sound half as bad to a congregation of people who know nothing about music. I wouldn’t give anything less than my best at Mass, but most people are (frankly) musically illiterate so they wouldn’t know my best from mediocre. (I know this because I often get complimented on performances that I know were not that great, and I’m sure you do too) Non-musicians will never understand the mindset of a musician.

 

[Sarika]

Yes, many of these organs are electronic “counterfeits” (as E Power Biggs called them) but it’s been demonstrated that people are more inclined to sing to the organ than any other instrument, especially in larger crowds. Pianos are nice for concert halls and homes though.

You have a great point here: usually, people ARE more inclined to sing to organ accompaniment. It can sustain the singing tones more easily than other instruments.
E. Power Biggs died 34 years ago, and great strides have been made in the electronic “counterfeits”. I totally support the idea of real pipe organs and real organists, but until we get a new, larger crop of organists, some of these “keyboards” might be put to good use: a piano technique w/ pedal would be able to sustain the singing very well, and achieve a relatively good organ sound (for the layman).

 

[Sarika]

Like others have said, it will take more than a week of lessons before you would be able to play the organ at Mass - as you found out, the technique is completely different from that of the piano. That said, it is extremely helpful to have spent some time at the piano before taking organ lessons - in fact, few organists will take on a student unless they have studied the piano to a reasonable degree. I had studied piano for about 8 - 9 years before I took my first organ lesson.

This is very, very encouraging!!! I’m tempted to seek out a good organist (if I can find one!) and start taking lessons.

The head of the Piano Dpt. (in the music dept. of our local university) is a concert pianist AND a fantastic organist. Maybe that will be a good place to start looking. The fact that she does both so incredibly well also gives hope. It probably takes a good while for the brain to adapt to going back and forth between the two, but eventually, it can be done.
Maybe not perfectly, but sufficiently!