Pianist playing pipe organ?

[Tomcmaj]

This discussion could go on for ages without any resolution!

My perspective is that it all depends upon the musician. I’m a pianist. However, I’ve sat down with numerous types of organs - pipe and bellows to electric to electronic - and pretty much figured them all out after a bit of practice. Am I an expert organist? Nope. Can I get through music required for Mass - and get compliments for my work? After a bit of practice, yes.

Not all musicians can do this, but many can. It all depends on how you approach your craft.

 

[Sarika]

This discussion could go on for ages without any resolution!

My perspective is that it all depends upon the musician. I’m a pianist. However, I’ve sat down with numerous types of organs - pipe and bellows to electric to electronic - and pretty much figured them all out after a bit of practice. Am I an expert organist? Nope. Can I get through music required for Mass - and get compliments for my work? After a bit of practice, yes.

Not all musicians can do this, but many can. It all depends on how you approach your craft.

Another encouraging post. Did you have to purchase books to explain the stops, manuals and pedals? If so, what do you recommend? I’m becoming more and more interested in trying this.

 

[NPC]

This is very, very encouraging!!! I’m tempted to seek out a good organist (if I can find one!) and start taking lessons.

The head of the Piano Dpt. (in the music dept. of our local university) is a concert pianist AND a fantastic organist. Maybe that will be a good place to start looking. The fact that she does both so incredibly well also gives hope. It probably takes a good while for the brain to adapt to going back and forth between the two, but eventually, it can be done.
Maybe not perfectly, but sufficiently!

Yes - do that! We badly need well-trained organists (well, certainly here in Ireland - I imagine the situation is similar in most countries)! If you have the motivation, then you can progress quite quickly. A music department would indeed be a good place to look for an organ teacher - especially if the university itself has a good reputation in terms of organ music. Alternatively, if you are near the cathedral church of your diocese it is likely that the organist gives lessons and there is a chance that you’ll be learning on a good quality instrument.

Another encouraging post. Did you have to purchase books to explain the stops, manuals and pedals? If so, what do you recommend? I’m becoming more and more interested in trying this.

There are some organ tutor books available which would explain the general structure and method of sound production of the organ. There are literally thousands of different stops: you know that no one piano is like another - this is even more true of the organ, where even a stop of the same name will sound different from one organ to another. One important element in the grouping of stops is the pitch at which they sound - eventually you will be able to judge what stops work well together, as well as stops that should never be used on their own!

I’m not sure what books would be recommended by teachers in the U.S. (if that’s where you are?), but the tutor book that I used was Play the Organ by the British organist and teacher David Sanger. There is a volume for beginners (which is, in fact, aimed at those who have little or no piano experience - though it is still a useful volume) and a second book which is slightly more advanced. They both contain some lovely short pieces which I still use occasionally as Offertory and Communion pieces! Incidentally, this series of tutor books was produced to mark “National Play the Organ Year” (in 1998 I think)…hopefully this will be a “play the organ year” for you and many others

 

[elgar]

I wondered about this. I know only a few organists who learned to play piano after they learned organ, and they say the same thing–it was hard for them.

Yes, this was my situation. The irony of it all, I turned out to be an accomplished organist who has since switched denominations because of a schism within the denomination and now play on a Clavinova instead of a 130 year old tracker organ. Boy do I miss it. However, I’m really improving my piano technique having to finger and voice cross differently since I no longer have a pedal board which I was extrememly comfortable playing. My wife sometimes plays the bass line when I play real organ music and just don’t have enough fingers for all the notes. It works.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

E. Power Biggs died 34 years ago, and great strides have been made in the electronic “counterfeits”. I totally support the idea of real pipe organs and real organists, but until we get a new, larger crop of organists, some of these “keyboards” might be put to good use: a piano technique w/ pedal would be able to sustain the singing very well, and achieve a relatively good organ sound (for the layman).

What I was referring to were not full-size electronic organs like those from Allen or Rodgers, which generally play and sound very close to a pipe organ, but rather Clavinova-type keyboards that have 88 piano keys and claim to reproduce everything from organs to harps. Electronic organs are still organs, and even the organ in my parish, a 1962 Allen TC-1 (a model with which Biggs was no doubt familiar), sounds and plays more like a pipe organ than a brand-new keyboard.

 

[Sarika]

What I was referring to were not full-size electronic organs like those from Allen or Rodgers, which generally play and sound very close to a pipe organ, but rather Clavinova-type keyboards that have 88 piano keys and claim to reproduce everything from organs to harps. Electronic organs are still organs, and even the organ in my parish, a 1962 Allen TC-1 (a model with which Biggs was no doubt familiar), sounds and plays more like a pipe organ than a brand-new keyboard.

Thanks for clarifying. Do you think, though, (for a pianist) that a good keyboard with an organ sound (despite it’s inferiority) might be the way to go, since it would be very difficult to play the electronic organ. Thus far (and this is subject to change) this is what I’m gathering:

1. Pipe organ, with a real organist is best.
2. Electronic organ with a real organist is next in line.
3. Electronic keyboard with organ sound, played by a pianist w/ pedal, is next.

Some would put acoustic piano in third place, but I beg to differ.

As I learn more, I might change my mind, but I would avoid acoustic piano unless there was no other keyboard instrument available.
is next in line.

 

[EasterJoy]

I am a rarity in that I started on an organ before taking piano lessons, but with sufficient practice and desire, I believe that any accomplished pianist can master the organ. That being said, I still struggle with the accordion, because although they have the same kind of keyboard as an organ, albeit with smaller keys, playing it sideways somehow throws me off.

I think there are some who will go far in piano but still a) find organ legato a concept too foreign to the inclination of their fingers or b) have feet that simply refuse to learn to play a musical instrument having the dimensions of organ pedals.

 

[elgar]

Thanks for clarifying. Do you think, though, (for a pianist) that a good keyboard with an organ sound (despite it’s inferiority) might be the way to go, since it would be very difficult to play the electronic organ. Thus far (and this is subject to change) this is what I’m gathering:

1. Pipe organ, with a real organist is best.
2. Electronic organ with a real organist is next in line.
3. Electronic keyboard with organ sound, played by a pianist w/ pedal, is next.

Some would put acoustic piano in third place, but I beg to differ.

As I learn more, I might change my mind, but I would avoid acoustic piano unless there was no other keyboard instrument available.
is next in line.

I agree with your numbers 1 and 2 but not 3. I wish I had an acoustic grand piano instead of a Clavinova. Remember, a piano is classified as a percussion instrument and one can control volume and articulation using piano technique and pedals.

I’ve never been satisfied with the “Organ” sound on these keyboards regardless of how much one spends. The only acceptable sounds on my keyboard are “Grand Piano” and “Harpsichord”-- which I use sparingly.

 

[Tomcmaj]

I wish I had an acoustic grand piano instead of a Clavinova.

Doesn’t everybody?

 

[Tomcmaj]

Another encouraging post. Did you have to purchase books to explain the stops, manuals and pedals? If so, what do you recommend? I’m becoming more and more interested in trying this.

If you’re bookish, I’m sure there are many books that you can pick up.

I recommend asking your pastor or choir master to let you sit down at the instrument for a couple of hours at an appropriate time during the day, and just play around with it to get your “organ legs”!

Even the smallest pipe organ is really a magnificent thing to play. Nowadays, keyboardists are used to playing more than one keyboard at the same time, so you’d be bringing some useful skills to the endeavor.

The other thing to remember (at the risk of being pilloried by all the organists on this site! ) is that organs are not as subtle in expression as pianos can be.

So…GO FOR IT! MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE UNTO THE LORD!!!

:extrahappy:

 

[Bonnie]

As a non-musical music lover, I want to thank all of you musicians - especially you organists - who take music seriously! :clapping:

I love living in the country, but it is so hard to find good musicians. Our best musician - & only organist - went to college in another state & now has a job elsewhere. We have an OK pianist who attempts to play the organ every once in a while. It’s painful.

Most of the time I have to suffer (& it is indeed suffering!) listening to acoustic & electric guitars & a flute. I guess I should be thankful we don’t have drums. Although on occasion they’ve snuck in a tambourine.

I listen to good music at home - I simply don’t understand why we can’t also have good music at mass. I’ve seriously considered earplugs. :sad_yes:

 

[Cat]

We had a little dinner for the Pipe Organ Encounter students tonight.

Turns out the pianists in the group all feel pretty much the same way I do–pretty discouraged.

Oh, we’ll stick with it and keep practicing and taking lessons. Most of us have been around long enough to know that only rare people manage to learn an instrument “after a bit of practice.”

Most of us need a lot more than “a little bit” of practice.

But I’m glad I’m not the only one who is feeling really crumby about my lack of organ ability.

BTW, something to think about. It’s one thing to “play an instrument.” It’s another thing to be able to “play music.” They’re not the same.

And finally, it’s something different altogether to not only make music, but to be able to lead worshippers in music. That’s not something that I or anyone can learn to do by just figuring out some mechanics.

I feel sorry for the next poor soul who stops me after Mass and says, “Since you play the piano, I’m sure you could play the organ. They’re pretty much the same thing.” Remember those famous words of Ralph Kramden–POW! Right in the kisser!

 

[a2catholic]

I am a 20 something and I’ve been playing the piano for over twenty years. I’m not shy to say that I’m pretty darn good at the piano. In the past year, I started taking organ lessons. I agree that it is extremely challenging. The first month was the most frustrating, so much so that I just considered quitting. I need special organ shoes? I need to play with my hands AND my feet? I need to change registrations on the fly? But after a few months of disciplined practice, using the feet does become second nature. Like any other instrument, it just takes practice. I feel that studying the organ has actually made me a better pianist.

Unfortunately the organ is a dying instrument. There are still young budding organists out there, but there are way too many organs and too few organists. Quite a few Anglican churches - some in the US but mostly in the UK - still have great organs and great organists. However, many other churches do not. The sad part is that organs are often being replaced by pop music and praise bands. There’s really nothing like the majesty of well played organ music in church.

 

[jilly4ski]

Hi Cat

I am a mediocre pianist at best, I had been playing for years but didn’t get lessons till college. (My prof had fun correcting everything, from finger position, fingering, phrasing (what phrasing), and other technique.

I took organ lessons my last semester. I had to stop taking piano lessons in order to have the time to practice organ (I wasn’t a music student). I practiced almost every day, and was only just starting hymns at the end of the school year. However, I was finding hymns the easier thing to play, probably because I didn’t play them on the piano. I also think I had a semi advantage, because I felt untrained on the piano, it was a similar feeling on the organ, and I was just learning something new. I got to play on a (new) tracker organ, and regular (electronic console) organs (including terrible dinky practice organs.

I am average height but still have to perch precariously on the edge of the bench in order to reach the pedals, because from knee to ankle my leg is really short. Fallen off the bench a few times.

I would like to go back and take more lessons, though it has now been 3 years since I played. So in essence, piano and organ are completely different instruments and must be studied as such.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Funny thing about the organ is that people are awed that one is able to play it and are willing to give a lot of compliments, but I personally don’t think I’m that great of an organist. Sure, I can operate the stops and hit the notes and play the pedals, but when I hear some REALLY accomplished organists playing, I realize how far I still have to go. The point? It’s that no matter what level you’re at, there’s always someone who’s better than you. I think if even if most people would consider you an expert at something, YOU will always see something that needs improving if you’re really interested in becoming the best that you can be. There’s always a little bit of dissatisfaction that keeps prodding us to try harder.

For the record, I’m a pretty lousy pianist compared to a lot of people. I’m amazed at what people can do with that thing.

 

[Robintrinket]

I don’t think you “get” my point with this thread.

You are entitled to your opinion about whether or not we have “bad attitudes” because we pianists are not willing to get up and play an organ and do a half-butted job of it.

But I will NOT offer any service to the Lord and His people that I can’t do with all of my heart and do reasonably well. It does not have to be perfect, but it has to be competent.

I think you would find very few real musicians who were willing to get up in front of people when they don’t have enough training, and play “notes.”

When I say that I played BADLY yesterday, I mean I sounded worse than my cats running across the keyboard. Do you REALLY think that someone like me should play the organ in Mass just because it’s an organ and not a slimy piano? Is the organ more important than the music itself?

It would be a lot cheaper for a parish to go to the local shelter and find a bunch of pretty cats and let them run across the organ keys and pedals (grease them with cat food first), if indeed having an organ is more important than having music in Mass. And I’m guessing that this would attract people to the Mass just to see the musical cats. Seriously, they would sound better (and look prettier!) than me at this time.

BTW, the faculty in my classes would disagree with you about “getting the job done” and “giving the congregation the notes.” In the Hymn Playing class yesterday, we learned all about how a congregation will lose trust in an organist if the instrument is not played well, and then the congregation will not sing. Just playing the notes is NOT adequate. Our job is to help the congregation sing, not just play notes.

On the piano, I am able to do all the things that the teacher discussed yesterday, and people sing when I play. But on the organ, at this point, I would make it more difficult for the congregation to worship God in music. So call it a “bad attitude” if you wish, but I choose to work for quite a while to learn some decent techniques before foisting myself upon a congregation.

I was responding to the Curt Jester’s comment about the “mediocre pianist” who wanted to play organ to fill in. I think that if a person like that wants to help out and is willing to try the organ, it is great and it is having a bad attitude to put them down like that. Such a person also I think may very well be able to pull it off, if they choose easy songs and practice enough before hand, and play it all on one of the manuals. If they sound a bit choppy, who cares? I was not talking about your situation in particular. If you are not comfortable with the way you sound and wouldn’t want to do it yet, fine. There may not even be a need for you to do so in your church.

There is a difference, by the way, between hitting “notes” and hitting the “right notes”. When I started playing organ in church, I had not taken organ lessons yet and only played on the manuals. I sounded choppy, but I certainly did not sound like cats running on an organ keys. For me, the transition to playing on organ manuals wasn’t the horrible difficult thing you make your experience sound to be. I played well enough for the congregation to sing with me, and they were happy to have me play since they previously had not had anyone to play at that Mass. Since then I have had organ lessons, have improved some, and can play pedals, but I don’t think it’s necessary to be able to play pedals, or even play smoothly, to be competent enough to have people sing with you if there is a need for someone to play at Mass.

I also have heard a couple of other people play who are pianists who play the organ on the manuals, and do a good job. The base line of their hymns does not sound as smooth as if they played pedals, but I am able to sing with them, and so is the rest of the congregation, and whatever music snobs might think of the way pianists play organ, I think they are enhancing the Mass and helping people sing, and are certainly better than having no one play, which is what there would be without them.

 

[Robintrinket]

Funny thing about the organ is that people are awed that one is able to play it and are willing to give a lot of compliments, but I personally don’t think I’m that great of an organist. Sure, I can operate the stops and hit the notes and play the pedals, but when I hear some REALLY accomplished organists playing, I realize how far I still have to go. The point? It’s that no matter what level you’re at, there’s always someone who’s better than you.

Which is exactly why you shouldn’t put down someone who is at a lower level than yourself who also is willing to learn and wants to help out. Even if they sound bad to you, they might not sound bad to the priest or congregation, and they’ll improve as they go along anyway. That’s what I’m saying about a church having to work with what it has. Lesser skilled musicians are better than none.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Which is exactly why you shouldn’t put down someone who is at a lower level than yourself who also is willing to learn and wants to help out. Even if they sound bad to you, they might not sound bad to the priest or congregation, and they’ll improve as they go along anyway. That’s what I’m saying about a church having to work with what it has. Lesser skilled musicians are better than none.

I’m not putting down a person for trying to help, but I was more annoyed with the pastor because there WERE real organists available to substitute for me and the pastor decided it would be better to just get this piano player (she cannot be called a pianist). If there is the option of having someone do something well, why not take that option?

 

[Robintrinket]

I’m not putting down a person for trying to help, but I was more annoyed with the pastor because there WERE real organists available to substitute for me and the pastor decided it would be better to just get this piano player (she cannot be called a pianist). If there is the option of having someone do something well, why not take that option?

Ok. But I think you already answered that question, the pastor did not think it was worth paying the extra money. Whether or not that was a good decision would depend on the financial situation of your church.

 

[TigerKitty]

Adding my 2 cents…

I’m a pianist by training, and had studied piano in college, also played for choirs, soloists, and in church. I had the great privilege of being asked to be an organist and choir director a few years ago. Knowing and accepting the conventional wisdom that being a pianist does not necessarily mean being an organist, I told our pastor that I would do it IF and ONLY IF he could not find another living soul to take the job.

Ends up he called me back a week later, and I accepted. I was terrified and totally intimidated by the instrument and spent HOURS practicing in the church. It was a newer digital organ, with lots of “cheater” buttons (could couple the great to the pedal and the computer would pick the lowest note for the pedal). Anyway…long story short…I ended up falling in love with the organ, and now miss it terribly. (Moved away and now have no where to play.)

The piano and organ are definitely NOT the same. Totally different techniques required for each. I think that the keyboard technique for organ is most closely related to the technique for baroque music, which is my main focus on piano, and I believe that helped me. I also found that there is ALOT of time required in the voicing of organ pieces, as far as selecting the proper registrations. And I like that there is no “strain” in depressing the keys on organ, as I have mild tendonitis in both hands - however, holding down keys for a long time with a wide reach does start to cause some aching. Oddly, I found switching fingers to sustain notes to be quite natural.

Being that the organ is a dying instrument, we should be encouraging new organists - and, yes, even pianists transitioning to organ. I do agree that they are NOT the same instrument, and a pianist making the jump does need to acknowledge and accept this fact, and put in the time and effort to become proficient at the organ. It can be done.

(Oh, and PS - it’s better not to play pedal at all if you can’t do it with 2 feet. Using only 1 foot is way too choppy.)