Piano plays while priest "sings" parts of mass. Appropriate?

[smithmj77]

Hello.

We have a new pastor at our parish. The few times I have met him he comes across as a wonderful priest, very attentive. His homilies are great. However, something he does during mass seems a little odd to me. From the Eucharistic Prayer through the Holy, Holy, Holy and during the final doxology, the priest sings the mass with piano accompaniment. This duet of the priest and piano can get very boisterous at times. They really ramp it up right before the Holy, Holy, Holy. Is this appropriate? I feel like I’m watching a musical rather than mass. Also, people are starting to sing along during parts that I believe the priest is only supposed to be saying. Any advice as to what I should do is much appreciated.

Thank you and God bless you.

Mike

 

[benedictgal]

Hello.

We have a new pastor at our parish. The few times I have met him he comes across as a wonderful priest, very attentive. His homilies are great. However, something he does during mass seems a little odd to me. From the Eucharistic Prayer through the Holy, Holy, Holy and during the final doxology, the priest sings the mass with piano accompaniment. This duet of the priest and piano can get very boisterous at times. They really ramp it up right before the Holy, Holy, Holy. Is this appropriate? I feel like I’m watching a musical rather than mass. Also, people are starting to sing along during parts that I believe the priest is only supposed to be saying. Any advice as to what I should do is much appreciated.

Thank you and God bless you.

Mike

You can have accompanyment for the Sanctus, but, not for the Eucharistic Prayer. This is what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

[53.] While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”,132 except for the people’s acclamations that have been duly approved, as described below.

The only time that an instrument can be played is during the Memorial Acclamation, but, after that, there should not be any musican instruments playing.

I hope this helps.

 

[Don9of11]

I would check with your local diocese and make sure there has not been some dispensation from the Bishop to allow this. Is the priest singing or chanting? I remember long ago our pastor would sometimes recite the Eucharistic Prayers in a kind of chant. Chant may not be the right word but that is what comes to mind.

 

[benedictgal]

I would check with your local diocese and make sure there has not been some dispensation from the Bishop to allow this. Is the priest singing or chanting? I remember long ago our pastor would sometimes recite the Eucharistic Prayers in a kind of chant. Chant may not be the right word but that is what comes to mind.

This is not something for which the bishop can grant a dispensation. RS makes it very clear that during the EP, there should not be any instruments playing. The only time that instruments can be used is for the Memorial Acclamation and the Amen after the doxology, but, not during the celebrant’s (nor concelebrant’s) portion of the EP.

The EP can certainly be chanted. The new ICEL translations have musical notations for the celebrant to chant the EP, but, there should not be any instruments played while he is doing this.

 

[smithmj77]

I hope this helps.

Very much! Thank you.

 

[smithmj77]

The EP can certainly be chanted. The new ICEL translations have musical notations for the celebrant to chant the EP, but, there should not be any instruments played while he is doing this.

What is the distinction between chanting and singing? I would definitely call what our priest does “singing”. He has a wonderful voice. I like it when he sings the appropriate parts of the mass, but should be be chanting and not singing?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

What is the distinction between chanting and singing?/QUOTE]
It is sort of half way between singing and speaking. The word chant comes from the French verb “chanter”, which means to sing. It is a sort of singing that uses a more limited range of pitches than singing itself. It is quite repetitive.

 

[Deb_H]

Singing the mass is allowed and in my opinion quite beautiful . We attended an Easter Vigil Mass away from home one time where the priest sang the entire thing . It was very moving

 

[Phemie]

The problem here is not that the priest sings/chants the Eucharistic Prayer, it’s that there is piano playing while he does so.

Considering the description of the ‘song’ it sounds as though someone else has discovered a Marty Haugen setting of Mass

 

[Don9of11]

This is not something for which the bishop can grant a dispensation. RS makes it very clear that during the EP, there should not be any instruments playing. The only time that instruments can be used is for the Memorial Acclamation and the Amen after the doxology, but, not during the celebrant’s (nor concelebrant’s) portion of the EP.

Some matters of the RS are decided by the Diocesan Bishop. In the matter of musical instruments being used during the EP, I stand corrected, it is not supposed to be done.

 

[benedictgal]

Some matters of the RS are decided by the Diocesan Bishop. In the matter of musical instruments being used during the EP, I stand corrected, it is not supposed to be done.

However, this is not one of them. Just because Marty Haugen wrote a setting for the EP that includes musical instruments, that does not make it licit. RS is quite clear on that.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hello.

We have a new pastor at our parish. The few times I have met him he comes across as a wonderful priest, very attentive. His homilies are great. However, something he does during mass seems a little odd to me. From the Eucharistic Prayer through the Holy, Holy, Holy and during the final doxology, the priest sings the mass with piano accompaniment. This duet of the priest and piano can get very boisterous at times. They really ramp it up right before the Holy, Holy, Holy. Is this appropriate? I feel like I’m watching a musical rather than mass. Also, people are starting to sing along during parts that I believe the priest is only supposed to be saying. Any advice as to what I should do is much appreciated.

Thank you and God bless you.

Mike

short answer
the priest is supposed to sing or chant the proper
there is supposed to be however NO instrumental accompaniment at that time, except perhaps if the organist needs to hit one note to get him on key at the beginning.
and no the people are to sing or recite only the responses intended for them

first response to this type of thing always is to simply ask the priest in the spirit of asking to be informed and educated on the matter.

 

[miniquedoes]

Seems like we had the same priest Because I am in the choir, I told the piano player several times that it is inappropriate to play during the Eucharistic prayer. Nothing ever happened because it was the priest that was telling him to play.

 

[Cat]

Seems like we had the same priest Because I am in the choir, I told the piano player several times that it is inappropriate to play during the Eucharistic prayer. Nothing ever happened because it was the priest that was telling him to play.

Please, everyone, don’t blame the piano player! We do what the priests tell us to do. It’s hard enough to be a pianist at Mass. Some people think we should just start magically the playing the organ! Other people accuse of being lounge lizards, no matter how careful we are to avoid the appearance of “performing.” And others flat out think that piano is never appropriate in the Mass.

I hope that all this abuse is good for at least a little shorter time in Purgatory for all Mass pianists!

Anyway, is it possible that the priest is trying to learn the melodies and has asked the pianist to play along with him until he knows them well enough to sing unaccompanied? Maybe this is just a temporary thing?

Yes, I know that it’s still not proper. I fully understand that the piano is not supposed to accompany the priest during these parts of Mass, and I would be extremely uncomfortable doing so if a priest asked me to accompany him. But I would obey him and ask him questions later.

And if the priest didn’t seem to understand that this is against the rubrics, I would probably go to the pastor of the parish and explain that I don’t want to play for Masses in which this particular priest is celebrating unless the priest stops asking me to accompany during an inappropriate time. Hopefully the pastor would be able to educate the priest that what he is doing is not allowed.

 

[benedictgal]

Please, everyone, don’t blame the piano player! We do what the priests tell us to do.

Is it possible that the priest is trying to learn the melodies and has asked the pianist to play along with him until he knows them well enough to sing unaccompanied? Maybe this is just a temporary thing? (Yes, it’s still not proper.)

I fully understand that the piano is not supposed to accompany the priest during these parts of Mass, and I would be very uncomfortable doing so if a priest asked me to accompany him. But I would obey him and ask him questions later. And I would probably go to the pastor of the parish and explain that I don’t want to play for Masses in which this particular priest is celebrating unless the priest stops asking me to accompany during an inappropriate time. Hopefully the pastor would be able to educate the priest that what he is doing is not allowed.

Cat, you are not obligated to obey a priest who asks you to do something that is contrary to the authoritative documents if the Church. We can only take obedience so far. In fact, as I see it, because we know what the Church requires, we are actually obliged not to engage in something that ts ilicit.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Cat, you are not obligated to obey a priest who asks you to do something that is contrary to the authoritative documents if the Church. We can only take obedience so far. In fact, as I see it, because we know what the Church requires, we are actually obliged not to engage in something that ts ilicit.

That’s nice on paper, but the bank doesn’t care that someone lost their job because they refused to play the piano during the EP.

 

[benedictgal]

That’s nice on paper, but the bank doesn’t care that someone lost their job because they refused to play the piano during the EP.

With all due respect, Father, there is such a thing as standing up for what is correct. Furthermore, some of the parish musicians are volunteers. Be that as it may, I could not, in good conscience, do something that goes squarely against what the authoritative documents of the Church specifically state.

It is not a mere matter to play an instrument during the recitation/chanting of the Eucharistic Prayer. It is an abuse, whether some choose to believe it or not. You are not obliged to obey the pastor if he is asking you to do something that is not permitted in the GIRM or RS. In fact, if the person were terminated, this is grounds for an appeal because an employer does not have the right to ask an employee to do something that is against company policy. In this case, it is against Church policy.

And, these are not pretty words. I have been there as a volunteer at my former parish. I voiced my opinion that a practice we were engaging in violated the GIRM and I would not do it, in good conscience. I left. Even though it was not a paying job, it was something that I had enjoyed doing, planning liturgies, up until that moment. But, there comes a time when you have to shake the dust off your feet after you’ve spoken your peace. Did it affect me deeply? Yes, Do I regret standing up for what is right? Absolutely not. Would I do it again? Yes,

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect, Father, there is such a thing as standing up for what is correct. Furthermore, some of the parish musicians are volunteers. Be that as it may, I could not, in good conscience, do something that goes squarely against what the authoritative documents of the Church specifically state.

We gotta put things in perspective here. The priest is the one ordering something that is against the liturgical documents, however he’s not ordering sacrilege of the Blessed Sacrament. My organist makes his main living through the parish (Weekend Masses, weddings, funerals, etc.). It would be utterly foolish of him to risk his mortgage over something like piano music during the EP.

You are not obliged to obey the pastor if he is asking you to do something that is not permitted in the GIRM or RS. In fact, if the person were terminated, this is grounds for an appeal because an employer does not have the right to ask an employee to do something that is against company policy. In this case, it is against Church policy.

Yeah, good luck with that one. Secondly, the pastor can always come up with an official reason for the firing or nonrenewal of contract that has nothing to do with the actual reason.
Meanwhile, even if you win, how long will that take? How many mortgage/car/tuition payments are missed in the meantime?
I’ve heard of a few organists appealing their firing to labor courts, never heard of one winning. 99 times out of 100, diocese will back the pastor over personnel decisions that don’t violate civil law.

And, these are not pretty words. I have been there as a volunteer at my former parish. I voiced my opinion that a practice we were engaging in violated the GIRM and I would not do it, in good conscience. I left. Even though it was not a paying job, it was something that I had enjoyed doing, planning liturgies, up until that moment. But, there comes a time when you have to shake the dust off your feet after you’ve spoken your peace. Did it affect me deeply? Yes, Do I regret standing up for what is right? Absolutely not. Would I do it again? Yes,

Once again, big difference between a volunteer and a career.

 

[benedictgal]

We gotta put things in perspective here. The priest is the one ordering something that is against the liturgical documents, however he’s not ordering sacrilege of the Blessed Sacrament. My organist makes his main living through the parish (Weekend Masses, weddings, funerals, etc.). It would be utterly foolish of him to risk his mortgage over something like piano music during the EP.

Yeah, good luck with that one. Secondly, the pastor can always come up with an official reason for the firing or nonrenewal of contract that has nothing to do with the actual reason.
Meanwhile, even if you win, how long will that take? How many mortgage/car/tuition payments are missed in the meantime?
I’ve heard of a few organists appealing their firing to labor courts, never heard of one winning. 99 times out of 100, diocese will back the pastor over personnel decisions that don’t violate civil law.

Once again, big difference between a volunteer and a career.

But, Father, playing an instrument during the EP is still a liturgical abuse no matter what. It is not something to make light of simply because one might not think that it is serious. Second, the priest, in my opinion, would also be abusing of his power if he threatened to fire someone simply because that individual does not want to disobey the Church. That would not be justifiable and such a termination would not hold water in a state’s wage and hourly office nor at the Chancery.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Chiming in as a volunteer organist here of many years’ standing (though I’ve luckily not faced this situation). . .I have to say, Father, that I agree with Benedictgal in the principle under discussion.

For too long now many of us have just ‘shut up’ in any situation where somebody else could make ‘trouble’.

Whether it is the loud-mouthed women yelling profanity as we walk in a playground with our children. . .

the bullying boss who demeans us in words and actions, knowing that we will ‘take it’ in order to provide for our family. . .

The demanding relatives who use tactics from private ‘guilting’ to public demonstrations aimed at destroying our reputations and moral position in order that they can ‘take’ what they choose. . .

The ‘mostly anonymous’ people who engage in public activities from offensive driving, pushing in line, lying, cheating, stealing, bragging about how they ‘did down’ or ‘got away with’ things. . .and this isn’t even considering those who commit public sexual sins and demand not just applause but quivering, abject penitence for supposed ‘sins’ against them by society in the past not ‘giving them respect’ for ‘who they are’. . .

I’m so tired of it, you know? I am tired of just ‘letting things go’ because some miserable bullying power-hungry person wants to ‘do what he/she wants’ and knows that 99% of the time, he/she can ‘get away with it’ because nobody has the guts to stand up for right anymore.

I don’t want to drag things off topic but I think (just my opinion of course) that things like this priest and his ‘piano solos’ are part of a greater societal problem. The thing is, we have to go after all of these wrongs. We can’t get caught in the usual trap of being told how these are just ‘little things’ and we ‘should be focusing on more important stuff.’ (Like you know, world peace.) We shouldn’t be made to feel guilty because we want the rules followed. All the rules. All the time. The way they should be.