Pianos, Guitars, Drums- Liturgical? Allowed at all?

[elliotfc]

Speakers? Perish the thought! The very thought of being “miked” is anathema to me. We have a twenty-five voice cathedral choir and we are a very tight vocal ensemble because we a) listen very closely to each other, b) have absolutely no need for drums or speakers because we listen closely to each other and c) we practice, practice, practice - three hours a week of practice.

Right. I wasn’t talking about singers, but instrumentalists. If you have guitars, they need to be amplified. I have had guitar players standing right next to me at the piano and I have not been able to hear them.

No, of course, having a drum “accompany” singers is silly.

Drums are not necessary when the choir sticks to Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony.

Exactly.

Most persons at my church (no I haven’t lived with them for their entire lives, and yes I know I’m being judgemental) have no experience with Gregorian Chant, or even what us Western types would call traditional hymns.

Frankly, it’d be as much of a success to have my music ministry learn Gregorian as it would to have your music minsitry learn a typical Dominican (Republic, not religious order) mass. There’d be about as much interest as well.

But point taken…you certainly don’t need drums for singing. It’s for the instrumental ensemble encorporating not-heavy-strumming guitars.

 

[elliotfc]

Is it the opinion of everyone who brings up the psalms as an excuse for drums et. al. that the Church for 2000 years never noticed them?

I’ve noticed it, can’t speak for other people.

If everyone overlooks something, that’s on them. It’s not on me, and it’s not on those who have a differing opinion of yours.

If the Vatican wants to put the interdict on churches who employ drums and guitars, they can do so.

Or could you all perhaps be errant in your private interpretation of their meaning as it relates to the liturgy of the Church?

Of course I could be wrong!

In the next one, God may certainly tell me that he meant for his Church to have the organ and the Gregorian chant as the primary, if not sole, way of singing as a way of praise and solemn celebration. If he says this to be, I will happily capitulate.

Personally I don’t think God cares, I think God wants us to use our talents to praise Him and to give Him glory. But I could be wrong. Jesus may have privately grieved that there were no organs and Gregorian chant when he lived his Palestianian life.

I am not telling anyone to use guitars and drums by the way. All the power to those who have the most traditional Western mass as possible. Different people and different cultures will find resonance in different musical styles and settings.

 

[elliotfc]

That’s going a bit far… One does not “need” drums for tight ensembles.

You could employ monitors…sure. Or earphones plugged into a master mixer. Or, if you’re top notch musicians, you can all keep an internal beat. Or you can have a conductor I guess.

There is only one paid musician at my church. There is no expectation to have anything akin to professional musicality. People work 50-60 hours a week and have families and it’s hard to get together to practice more than 2 hours a week.

There’s the ideal…sure…but I work in reality at my church. I am not going to read the riot act because we’re not the tightest group since Ride.

Drums are merely a different instrument in an ensemble A good drummer cannot fix bad ensemble playing.

No. He can lay down a steady beat that everyone can follow.

There are many excellent ensembles that do not use drums and there are no problems with the tightness of the ensemble.

Agreed. Some people are more talented and have more preternatural rhythmical gifts than others.

 

[JButky]

There’s the ideal…sure…but I work in reality at my church. I am not going to read the riot act because we’re not the tightest group since Ride.

No-one is suggesting that. My only complaint was that your post presented the idea that if there are no drums there is no possibility of an ensemble being tight…It’s just not crucial at all…

Don’t know where the “riot act” comments or the complaints about your group came from. All I’m saying is that drums are not crucial for “tightness”.

Joe B

 

[JButky]

In the psalms, David would even specify the tune and instruments which did not exclude drum-like instruments and strings, and might have included a shofar perhaps.

If anyone wants some History with samples, there is a decent website with info here:

Liturgica.com

And some more from the same

You can also see the transition to Catholicism and see why Chant is the original Liturgical music…Just click the sidebars.

Joe B

 

[brotherhrolf]

Right. I wasn’t talking about singers, but instrumentalists. If you have guitars, they need to be amplified. I have had guitar players standing right next to me at the piano and I have not been able to hear them.

No, of course, having a drum “accompany” singers is silly.

Exactly.

Most persons at my church (no I haven’t lived with them for their entire lives, and yes I know I’m being judgemental) have no experience with Gregorian Chant, or even what us Western types would call traditional hymns.

Frankly, it’d be as much of a success to have my music ministry learn Gregorian as it would to have your music minsitry learn a typical Dominican (Republic, not religious order) mass. There’d be about as much interest as well.

But point taken…you certainly don’t need drums for singing. It’s for the instrumental ensemble encorporating not-heavy-strumming guitars.

I’m right here, smack dab in the middle of South Louisiana. We’ve sung in French, German, Latin, Spanish, and Vietnamese. We’re fairly multi-cultural down here and, come to think of it, we’ve even sung in Old and Middle English. So a Missa Creola would not present a major challenge to us because when you get down to brass tacks, we are Creole. We can sing in Cajun French or the French of Versailles. And, yes, there would be interest.

May I suggest that you consider easing your choir into Latin by using the excellent materials published by the ecumenical community at Taize in France? Latin is the root language of French, Spanish, Portuguese, Croatian, Rumanian etc. It’s not rocket science. The music from Taize is easily accesible by even novice choirs. Check it out.

 

[elliotfc]

No-one is suggesting that. My only complaint was that your post presented the idea that if there are no drums there is no possibility of an ensemble being tight…It’s just not crucial at all…

Don’t know where the “riot act” comments or the complaints about your group came from. All I’m saying is that drums are not crucial for “tightness”.

Joe B

Fair enough.

I consider my experience with guitar-based groups, both secular and ecclesiastical, extensive. Drums are crucial for these groups, particularly when each instrument uses it’s own speaker, or set of speakers. Even the most professional of guitarists record with click tracks.

I am not speaking about any other sort of ensembles.

With hispanic guitars like cuatros and guitarrons, you have to be careful of how you arrange the players. If you go acoustic it can work without drums in small area. Once you go with amplifiers things get geometrically problematic. Now…if you jack up a cuatro and keep the strummings down, it can work. The hispanic strum is quite different from more Western strum patterns, you’re off the beat, and you react to the beat.

You don’t need a full kit either! Usually a conga or timbale is all you’re talking about. When a kit is used it’s basic.

 

[elliotfc]

May I suggest that you consider easing your choir into Latin by using the excellent materials published by the ecumenical community at Taize in France? Latin is the root language of French, Spanish, Portuguese, Croatian, Rumanian etc. It’s not rocket science. The music from Taize is easily accesible by even novice choirs. Check it out.

We did Veni Sancte Spiritus this past weekend, with the solo verses in Spanish!

We’ve done Nada Me Turbe before.

We do the Kyrie…that would be Greek…seasonally. The Agnus Dei we’ve sung.

The congregational participation with the Agnus Dei has been very very bad. We practiced before mass with the congregation for 3 consecutive weeks, and then again. There’s simply no interest in the latino community at my church to sing in any language besides Spanish. I think that in an immigrant community, there is resentment when surrounded by a different language. They come to church to speak Spanish and hear Spanish and bristle when another language, be it English or Latin or whatever, is “forced” on them.

Not to mention the constitutional make-up of the singers and instrumentalists just doesn’t fit Gregorain type stuff. It’s like asking the Rolling Stones to play Carpenters tunes. Sure, it’s doable…

Any explanation that has, as it’s premise, that Roman Catholics ought to be reciting or singing in Latin, totally works in a vacuum…but that’s about it. It makes sense to people who are comfortable with Latin, or comfortable with the Latin mass. For people who aren’t, and for people who are cognizant that they are perfectly capable of glorifying God in the tongue they are comfortable with…it’s like being told they should wear a red shirt every day because they should wear a red shirt every day.

 

[DixiesFinest]

Hi everyone,

My first post although I’ve been trolling around for a while now. I appreciate all of the info and edification that I’ve gotten from this Forum and it’s members.

I’m a revert and what I reverted to was orthodox, Catechism Catholicism. Thought I’d just have to walk into an average church and find it, but it hasn’t quite worked out that way Lol.

I was at Mass today and wasn’t sure whether I’d wandered into a really bad Broadway musical or a U2 concert. I’ve learned to grin and bear these things, but this time they were doing some sort of Top 40ish ensemble during the Consecration. What bothered me the most was that they were banging away on a set of drums as well. This was done during the prelude and in the middle of the Consecration, just before the priest lifts up the Eucharist.

I’m a fairly young guy and don’t want to whine, but (aside from being the tackiest, most disrespectful thing I’ve ever seen), isn’t this against Canon Law?? I thought that I heard that no precussion instruments should be played at any time during the Mass (hence an organ instead of a piano), but that’s obviously not a hard and fast rule, given guitar Masses, etc. During the Consecration, however, isn’t a drum “against the law”?? If it is, I’m going to bring it up with our pastor. I truly felt embarrassed for Christ!

I’ll never understand that mind set. The Church isn’t “Cool” and never will be. It’s Beautiful and True. This Mass was apparently for young people and is supposed to draw them in I guess. Rather than teaching the faith with passion and eloquence, I guess this is easier…but it won’t work! They’ll come in and leave with nothing. If I want to hear drums, I’ll put on the Stones and listen to Charlie Watts!

Sorry for going on/off, but this was everything that I thought the Catholic Church wasn’t. It was like- “Heeeere’s Jesus!” (Drum riff, etc.).

Again, if it’s against Canon Law, I’m going to have a chat.

Not crazy about coming out of Mass in a bad mood.

Thanks

You might have stumbled into an Episcopal Church, because they began having the blasphemous “U2-charist” in their “churches”

usatoday.com/life/music/2006-10-25-u2-churches_x.htm

e4gr.org/pray/u2charists.html