Pianos, Guitars, Drums- Liturgical? Allowed at all?

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VociMike said:
You folks bemoaning the cost of an organ haven’t kept up with the times. There are now digital organs (which play digitized tones sampled from real pipe organs) that cost no more than a decent piano.
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Believe it or not, some churches would have a hard time scraping together $1500 for a piano, keyboard, organ, whatever. I guess they could put it on a credit card.

And again, if the solution is digitalization, then salvation through technology? Yes I’m overstating it to make a point.
 
elliotfc said:
Believe it or not, some churches would have a hard time scraping together $1500 for a piano, keyboard, organ, whatever. I guess they could put it on a credit card.

And again, if the solution is digitalization, then salvation through technology? Yes I’m overstating it to make a point.
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What point exactly are you trying to make? That no parish should try to place the organ in the position of pre-eminence that Vatican II and recent popes have called for, because there are some really poor parishes in the world? I guess all those Fathers of Vatican II, and recent popes, didn’t know about those poor parishes, or they never would have written what they did.
 
Sarabande said:
Oh, yes… As much as I love my organist friends, they are definitely an odd bunch. One of them actually does not like to hang out with other organists. He’d rather be around singers and other musicians.
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I’m an organist who watches zombie movies.

All the organists I know…they are very particular people. I could use a four-letter word that begins with the letter a. Across the board. I am included of course.

We are also very interested in each other. I’ve actually spent unplanned sessions lasting over an hour talking about the organist situation.

There’s also paranoia, and territorial marking. Wary of newcomers, particularly new pastors and new musicians who just want to “help out”.
 
MusicMan said:
My church does not have a working organ, but they have a lovely digital keyboard. I tried the organ settings on it once. Father thought it sounded acceptable (“as good as the real thing!”). I thought it sounded like garbage and told him as much. I’m using the accoustic piano until he lets me reinstall the old organ or start a fund raiser to buy a new one.
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I think Yamaha Clavinovas run about $3000 or so. They’re terrific, and I’m a snob who refuses to sit in front of a Young Chang.

Of course I’ve never tried any settings beside piano.
 
VociMike said:
What point exactly are you trying to make? That no parish should try to place the organ in the position of pre-eminence that Vatican II and recent popes have called for, because there are some really poor parishes in the world?
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No. That most parishes should not be compelled to place the organ in the position of pre-eminence that Vatican II and recent popes have called for, because there are some really poor parishes in the world.

I wasn’t talking about trying. More like being on the receiving end of a mission to reinstate the organ to its lofty and God-given position as the pre-eminent instrument in liturgical music.

Hey, if this is a major issue, let the Vatican deliver organs to ever church on the globe, along with instructors and the desired repertoire. Short of that, we’re talking past each other.

I think we’re in a privileged position, where most US churches can afford organs. It is my understanding that this is not the case in poorer nations. I would be delighted to be proven wrong, so please, anyone feel free to do so. In addition, I’d be happy to read up about the demand from poorer churches for liturgical organ playing and traditional hymnody.

There is money spent in catechism, NFP, various outreach ministries. If this is truly a serious concern, the Catholic Church will invest millions in training congregations who could give a darn about the organ to start giving a darn about the organ.
I guess all those Fathers of Vatican II, and recent popes, didn’t know about those poor parishes, or they never would have written what they did.
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I nominate cultural imperialism. A venial sin. Cultural imperialism on both sides. There are probably hundreds of bishops who scoff at any insinuations that the organ is the best instrument for the liturgy, for the reason of cultural imperialism.

Again, if a work of creative technology is so crucial to the liturgy, I think that’s a pretty sad state. It would mean that the first 1500 years of the church was lacking.
 
I like the bassoon, but I don’t really think it’s a very effective instrument for accompanying singing, especially congregational singing.

Perhaps the bassoonists out there disagree. Am I missing a really great choral work for choir and bassoon?
 
Cat said:
I like the bassoon, but I don’t really think it’s a very effective instrument for accompanying singing, especially congregational singing.

Perhaps the bassoonists out there disagree. Am I missing a really great choral work for choir and bassoon?
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Well, there’s Bassoon and Very Bassoon, which is a popular hymn in many parishes, kinda has a gospel feel, nice 4 part harmony…
 
elliotfc said:
I nominate cultural imperialism. A venial sin. Cultural imperialism on both sides. There are probably hundreds of bishops who scoff at any insinuations that the organ is the best instrument for the liturgy, for the reason of cultural imperialism.
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I can’t fathom how you could suggest this, considering that Vatican II was a general council with bishops from around the world. Perhaps all those “third-world” bishops just had no idea what was appropriate for their flocks.
Again, if a work of creative technology is so crucial to the liturgy, I think that’s a pretty sad state. It would mean that the first 1500 years of the church was lacking.
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Good grief, who has used the word “crucial” regarding digital sampled organs? Certainly not me. Are you setting up a strawman? Should we remove all those “crucial” light bulbs and air conditioners from churches also? Go back to hand-copied bibles on sheepskin?

Let’s keep focused on the actual arguments here, shall we? Frankly your reaction to a simple observation that cheap, decent-sounding organs are now available is bewildering.
 
VociMike said:
I can’t fathom how you could suggest this, considering that Vatican II was a general council with bishops from around the world. Perhaps all those “third-world” bishops just had no idea what was appropriate for their flocks.
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Or, they weren’t fully engaged in this particular matter. I dunno, how much discussion went into this particular point? Days? Weeks?

Also, just how many third world bishops were fully invovled, or, had enough “sway” to make a difference?

I am hardly an expert on this, but I am aware that because of Vatican II, the African church did become more westernized, particularly with the removal of folk elements and superstitions.

Finally, like I said, this can work both ways. An African bishop can make the decision, after being in Rome for a time, that the Western ideals are most suitable to persons who’ve never been 25 miles from their native village.
Good grief, who has used the word “crucial” regarding digital sampled organs? Certainly not me. Are you setting up a strawman? Should we remove all those “crucial” light bulbs and air conditioners from churches also? Go back to hand-copied bibles on sheepskin?
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No, and there is no debate about light bulbs and air conditioners.

I’m not arguing or proposing that churches who don’t own organs ought to get organs. If the word crucial is bad then, what word applies?
Let’s keep focused on the actual arguments here, shall we? Frankly your reaction to a simple observation that cheap, decent-sounding organs are now available is bewildering.
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OK…I’ll stick with the point that $1500 is still quite a lot for some churches. And, that even if such an organ could be had, someone who is capable of playing it needs to be paid to play it.
 
elliotfc said:
I think Yamaha Clavinovas run about $3000 or so. They’re terrific, and I’m a snob who refuses to sit in front of a Young Chang.

Of course I’ve never tried any settings beside piano.
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Our church has a Clavinova. It has a couple of “organ” settings. The “chapel organ” setting is tolerable, but the “church organ” setting is awful, with lots of 16’ sound growling around. :eek:
 
Sarabande said:
That’s true and I think it’s a decent alternative if a parish can’t afford a real organ. Although, mst of the organists I know can’t stand the sound of digital organs, nor do they enjoy playing them.
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Most serious organists would by far prefer a reconditioned used pipe organ over a new electronic/digital machine. With the trend toward praise bands and “contemporary worship,” many churches are selling their pipe organs. The Organ Clearing House is one source for picking up such an instrument, and their prices are quite reasonable. www.organclearinghouse.com Many of their listings are beautiful vintage instruments which, once reconditioned, would last decades longer than an electronic organ.
 
CarrieH said:
Most serious organists would by far prefer a reconditioned used pipe organ over a new electronic/digital machine. With the trend toward praise bands and “contemporary worship,” many churches are selling their pipe organs. The Organ Clearing House is one source for picking up such an instrument, and their prices are quite reasonable. www.organclearinghouse.com Many of their listings are beautiful vintage instruments which, once reconditioned, would last decades longer than an electronic organ.
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Thank you for the website, CarrieH! Yes, you are absolutely right. Most serious organists would rather play on a real organ, as I said most of the organists I know can’t stand playing digital ones, or what they call “toasters”.
 
Sarabande said:
Thank you for the website, CarrieH! Yes, you are absolutely right. Most serious organists would rather play on a real organ, as I said most of the organists I know can’t stand playing digital ones, or what they call “toasters”.
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Not all digital organs are created equal and many are “respectable instruments”. Then again…some are not. Real organists use pedals. You cannot play some of the great organ literature on a digital piano with organ samples because there is no pedal board. That limits a lot of possibilities for an organist.

When our Church was being renovated, we used the church digital piano with the organ settings in the school gym. It worked fine, was not enjoyable for me, but was perfectly reasonable and acceptable considering the situation.

The same is true of any other instrument. If it can be adapted appropriately for usage, then it’s OK.

As an paid organist and cantor (not an AGO member) I do get far more calls from non Catholic Churches for work. Most of our churches here have organs that are not being used or are being used by some really horrible “musicians” because there is no one else. But the Protestant Churches are looking, calling and paying which is far more than I can say for the Catholic Churches around here.

Playing a really good pipe organ in a fantastic space is an experience that is very humbling. Let any organist allow you to sit at the bench and play a simple C chord with all stops pulled and you will experience what I mean. No other single instrument is capable of that.

They are expensive to maintain but worth it. That is probably the reason more places have gone with digital or old analog organs. One poorer Church I play in has an old analog wurlitzer that has the whole front panel fall off now and then. But it works and is ample and suitable for the space. Yah it’s a “Toaster” but the congregation doesn’t know it and it does the job.

As usual, it is not the instrument but what you do with it. Of course having a good instrument is much more gratifying… 🙂

Joe B
 
“Toasters” is spot on. My cathedral was one of the first to be renovated after V II. (1967 I believe) Out came the pipe organ. Out came the choir loft. A brand new electronic organ was installed in the nave as well as pews for the choir. I joined the choir in '83. By this time the organ was 16 years old and its technology was several generations old. In 1989 during the wedding of a fellow choir member, the “Hoover”, as we called it, shorted out in a spectacular manner requiring the judicious use of a fire extinquisher. Parts were no longer available.

From 1989 to 1992, we used a wooden portativ organ (constructed by our organist/choir director from medieval designs); a harpsichord (constructed by one of our choir members) [that was really, really, lovely except that the sound couldn’t cover the cathedral] and finally a baby grand that was loaned to us.

For my parish’s 200th anniversary in late 1992, both the choir loft and a brand new Reuter’s pipe organ were installed. There is no substitution for the genuine article.

We used a Clavinova for practice for awhile but eventually moved back to a grand piano. I have a feeling that “natural” sound works best.
 
I dislike playing Clavinovas, but I’ll do it if that is the only “piano.”

I’m not sure if my original idea has been lost in this discussion. I was trying to make the point that Catholics who are opposed to all other music besides pipe organ need to understand that pipe organs and those who play them are on the endangered species list.

If they truly believe that the Mass is not as good without pipe organ music, then they need to join the National Organophic Society and chip in money to save the dying species.

Looking nastily toward the church pianist and whispering comments under your breath like “sounds like a lounge piano” will NOT bring back the pipe organ and make your church “perfect” again. I can’t suddenly evolve into a pipe organist (yet another fact indicating the ridiculousness of the inter-species evolution theory.)

Seriously, I don’t like to hear Catholics complain about something unless they are willing to do something to fix it. Put your money where your mouth is–provide a hefty scholarship or start a scholarship fund for kids to use to take organ lessons. That’s the only way you will see the return of the organ in Catholic Churches. If you’re not willing to do this, then you had better learn to like piano, guitar, and bassoon music in your Mass.

Maybe the Catholic Church should relax its position on human cloning and clone a couple of really good organists, making enough “copies” for all the churches in the world to have their own organist.
 
“Bassoon and Very Bassoon”–didn’t Andrae “Bassoon” Crouch sing that song?

You realize, of course, that I’ll never be able to hear that song again without thinking of the low, melodious nasality of the bassoon?
 
Cat said:
You realize, of course, that I’ll never be able to hear that song again without thinking of the low, melodious nasality of the bassoon?
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You guys are being way to hard on the bassoon, After all, it’s not an accordian! :eek:

Joe B
 
Cat said:
I’m not sure if my original idea has been lost in this discussion. I was trying to make the point that Catholics who are opposed to all other music besides pipe organ need to understand that pipe organs and those who play them are on the endangered species list.
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Ever hear a saxophone and organ prelude? Trombone and organ prelude? How about shawm, theorbo, recorder, and lute accompanying the choir? Bodhran, tambourine and tin whistle?

As a choir member, I’ve sung with them all (saxophone acompaniament to the organ on Howell’s “Like as the Hart” - one of my most favorite anthems). We’ve done more than one early music concert and used the same instruments during Midnight Mass. My little Celtic heart blossoms on the rare occasions we get to sing “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say” not as a dirge like hymn but to the tempo of “Star of the County Down”, as it was meant to be, with bodhran, tambourine, and tin whistle. (And we have an entire parish choir in my diocese which does Celtic music…and, oh, am I tempted!).

So, to get back to your initial question. Pianos - yes. My cathedral choir sang with a baby grand for a year. But our organist/pianist treated it straightforwardly - we never sounded like a southern Baptist church. Guitars? Yes. But played in a classical manner. Drums? A military bass drum pounding a funereal cadence on Good Friday as the bishop and priests process towards the altar never fails to send a shiver down my back. A greatly poignant reminder of what Our Lord may have heard on his way to Calvary.

Timpani? Of course…to accompany the brass on feast days.

I think you can see that it is not the instruments themsevles, but the application of the instruments. That, in my humble opinion, is the nexus of the question. It’s not the instruments, it is how and in what context they are used.
 
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