Pianos, Guitars, Drums- Liturgical? Allowed at all?

[elliotfc]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the probitive costs of organs and organists.

A full-time organist would usually require benefits, and church jobs with benefits, across the board, are becoming harder and harder to procure.

It’s expensive to maintain an organ, let alone by one.

Heck, I know some churches who use guitar players at FUNERALS because they do it on the cheap, like $50 a funeral, whereas an organist is about $100.

 

[Cat]

elliotfc, you’re right. $100/Mass is the going rate in our city.

(I don’t charge that much because I’m a fairly new Catholic, and I’m not makinga living from my music. But I don’t let other musicians in the city know this, or I would get in trouble. It’s not fair to “undersell” them, since they are making their living from their music.)

I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but like I said, Are all of the Catholics who insist on “pipe organ only” aware of all these obstacles and what are they doing about it? If their church is hiring guitarists (or using volunteers) because they are cheaper, are the “organ only” people willing to chip in a $100/week to pay for the organist?

BTW, our church doesn’t pay the volunteer pianists like me. They pay the Music Director, and he is excellent.

 

[Cat]

Someone mentioned the Organ Guild.

At our parish, we have a bit of a problem with this organization.

Several years ago, the diocese fired our Music Director/Organist because he had been hiding a practicing homosexual relationship. (He had told them he was a celibate homosexual.)

The Organ Guild blacklisted our church. No one from the Guild is allowed to play at our church.

I think this is despicable. The organ in our church is one of the finest organs that I have ever seen. IMO as a musician, it is a crime to not let this organ be played by the best organists. They are not accomplishing anything by this foolish boycott against our church. Their boycott will not change diocescan policy about practicing homosexuals.

But if you try to talk with them about it, they are adamant. Their man was hurt, and they stick by him, even if it means the organ is silent.

This happened about three years ago, BTW. Maybe that’s why these people stuck with their organ lessons–they’re stubborn!

Grr.

 

[CarrieH]

This happened about three years ago, BTW. Maybe that’s why these people stuck with their organ lessons–they’re stubborn!

Organists are an odd bunch, to be sure. I have heard it said that the only thing two organists might agree upon is how poorly a third organist has played!

 

[elliotfc]

elliotfc, you’re right. $100/Mass is the going rate in our city.

On Long Island, an organist can command between $100 and $150. A organist who can sing as well as play can go for $125 to $200.

My church pays me, as part of my job as organist and de-facto music director, $125 per funeral. I sing and play, English and Spanish. I could ask for more, which they could pay, because hiring a cantor and an organist individually would cost them more than if I were to get $150 a mass, but it is my parish and I am content. I’d say there are a handful of funerals a year where I am not paid because the family can’t afford to give the church any money.

(I don’t charge that much because I’m a fairly new Catholic, and I’m not makinga living from my music. But I don’t let other musicians in the city know this, or I would get in trouble. It’s not fair to “undersell” them, since they are making their living from their music.)

Yes…I often, when speaking to other musicians, qualify my situation by saying that what I charge and what I don’t charge is part of my contribution to my church, because I view my church not just as a job.

I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but like I said, Are all of the Catholics who insist on “pipe organ only” aware of all these obstacles and what are they doing about it? If their church is hiring guitarists (or using volunteers) because they are cheaper, are the “organ only” people willing to chip in a $100/week to pay for the organist?

Probably, I think they speak primarily from the point of ideal. But that irks me for this reason. If the ideal can only be had by a relatively wealthy parish, and the ideal can not possibly be had by a poor parish, than the poor parish can never possess the ideal, and that’s not an very good mindset. Since I’m speaking for others and not myself I am open to being challenged by my opinion.

BTW, our church doesn’t pay the volunteer pianists like me. They pay the Music Director, and he is excellent.

I am the only paid musician at my church. There are eight different music groups/minsitries. Cantors…folk group…english choir…and five different Spanish groups. I augment and support all of the music groups/ministries, and get involved in the “bigger” things that happen, be they ordinations or holy day masses, and then there are the bilingual masses which are a whole different animal. I am often told that I don’t get paid enough for what I do, so I don’t feel to guilty about being the only paid musician.

 

[CarrieH]

Actually, CarrieH, I know of several churches in our city who allow students to practice on their pianos (I don’t know of any organ students). I’m not sure if they charge a fee; I think they do. (Nothing wrong with that, IMO.)

Maybe the crime rate in your area is less than where I live. Around here, everything is locked up after hours, and for good reason. There have been robberies and vandalism in the churches, and at my parish church we had a mentally-ill woman would would come in and abuse the keyboard instruments, and refuse to leave when asked to do so.

The local university’s practice rooms have assigned hours and are kept locked. If you don’t have a key or have access to someone to let you in, you’re out of luck. The organ and grand piano studios were locked even when I was a music student back in the '70’s, and since I wasn’t a piano major, I didn’t get a key. But I was thin and agile enough back then to climb in through the window!

 

[drafdog]

About the only instrument that may not be appropriate as a liturgical instrument is the Highland Pipes. Even this might be approved provided the liturgy is held out of doors.
Re. post #6? who thought it terrible that there may be more bassoonists than organists in the diocese: Why terrible? What have you got against the bassoon, an instrument with a rich, mellow, pleasant voice?

Matthew

 

[VociMike]

You folks bemoaning the cost of an organ haven’t kept up with the times. There are now digital organs (which play digitized tones sampled from real pipe organs) that cost no more than a decent piano.

 

[Sarabande]

I wish I could play the organ. I think it’s beautiful, the most beautiful of all the instruments. I always stick around after Mass to hear the organ postlude. To me, the organ is what we will hear in heaven.

I agree. I love the organ as well, when it’s played well and beautifully. Our main organist at our Cathedral is basically a genius. He is probably one of the best in the city and was also trained classically on the piano and plays that beautifully. His playing is practically flawless, tasteful and beautifully artistic, inciting very deep, physically spiritual feelings in me. I can’t really explain it any better than that. He is also a wonderful accompanist and knows how to breathe with a singer or other instrumentalist, so you feel like a team rather than someone accompanying the other. But a bad organist is like hearing a cat fight.

I would like to say something that might sound a little snotty…
Maybe you didn’t have children. Did you offer to pay for another child(ren) from a deserving family(families) to take organ lessons? Did you provide the scholarship money for books, and pick the child(ren) up and take them home? Did you drive them to the church to practice? Did you attend their recitals and encourage them to stick with it?

Or did you yourself learn to play the organ?

I don’t view this as a snotty statement at all, like I don’t view people’s opinions as wanting only organ as snotty either. It’s a well thought-out concept that you have and I totally agree with you. It’s the same idea when parents of children at the school I used to teach music at, moaned and complained that the 7th and 8th graders didn’t have music classes like the younger children. They wanted it for them and said it was important for their children to have a well-rounded education. So, the pastor gave it to them. Then, when I started making them work and study, like writing reports or doing homework, etc., the parents moaned and complained, saying that it isn’t as important as the rest of their studies and they shouldn’t have to do “so much work”. I wasn’t hard on them. They had the entire semester to work on the reports. I realized they had other classes they needed to do and keep their grades up for them. It’s just that some of these parents (not all) wanted to it both ways. I don’t have children and don’t make the money to help pay for other children, but I have and do attend events to encourage children and even my other colleagues who, like me, are struggling to make a living as a musician.

Playing the organ takes many years of hard work. I live in a city where there is a thriving music community. I am an active member of the oldest local music club in the U.S., which is very lively in our city. I think it is safe to say that there are fewer people who play organ in our city than any other instrument. I’ll bet there are more bassoonists in our city than organists. I work with a lot of children and teenagers in various musical venues, and I don’t know ONE child, Catholic or Protestant or even non-believing, who takes organ lessons. Piano, yes. Guitar, violin, trumpet, everything else you can imagine, including keyboards. But not organ.

How sad. I hope it changes for your city. It’s not that bad in our city, but we also have one of the best music conservatories in the country, so we’ve been lucky in that respect. But again, it is less and less with the number of younger organists getting into the ranks. Perhaps it is because of the amount of work one must put into playing the organ. Many children have smaller attention spans than they did in the past.

I guess what I’m saying is that if you want organ music for Mass, then do whatever you can to provide organists, because nowadays, they are rarer than a Baptist in a bar.

:clapping: YES! YES! YES! Or at least encourage music that can be played by organists. My colleagues who are organists and are a couple generations ahead of me, have complained that many of them, although still practicing Catholics, couldn’t find jobs in Catholic churches as an organist, so had to get jobs in Protestant ones. That is another problem.

 

[Sarabande]

Maybe the crime rate in your area is less than where I live. Around here, everything is locked up after hours, and for good reason. There have been robberies and vandalism in the churches, and at my parish church we had a mentally-ill woman would would come in and abuse the keyboard instruments, and refuse to leave when asked to do so.

Yes, I would agree with Carrie. At our Cathedral, they have to lock it up tight as they’ve had many homeless people, burglars, vandals, you name it, try to break into there. We’ve even had men climb to the second floor of the rectory and break in that way. I have a key as do the rest of the musicians, but I can’t get into certain parts of the Cathedral without a code to stop the alarm from going off. It’s actually a little scary and dangerous to be down at the Cathedral by myself as a woman at night. It’s safe during the day, though.

I used to get into my university practice rooms even after I graduated, but now they also keep everything locked up and you need a key to get into them, so that’s also out of the question.

 

[Sarabande]

Someone mentioned the Organ Guild.

At our parish, we have a bit of a problem with this organization.

Several years ago, the diocese fired our Music Director/Organist because he had been hiding a practicing homosexual relationship. (He had told them he was a celibate homosexual.)

The Organ Guild blacklisted our church. No one from the Guild is allowed to play at our church.

I think this is despicable. The organ in our church is one of the finest organs that I have ever seen. IMO as a musician, it is a crime to not let this organ be played by the best organists. They are not accomplishing anything by this foolish boycott against our church. Their boycott will not change diocescan policy about practicing homosexuals.

But if you try to talk with them about it, they are adamant. Their man was hurt, and they stick by him, even if it means the organ is silent.

This happened about three years ago, BTW. Maybe that’s why these people stuck with their organ lessons–they’re stubborn!

Grr.

That’s sad for your church and the organ. Actually, I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who is an accomplished organist (a young one at that). He told me that many of his younger colleagues, meaning organists under the age of 35, don’t really have much to do with the AGO any longer. It’s just not as respected by the younger generation of organists. This guy is pretty up-to-date and informed about this stuff. So, you might luck out and find a younger organist who does not belong with the guild.

 

[Sarabande]

Organists are an odd bunch, to be sure. I have heard it said that the only thing two organists might agree upon is how poorly a third organist has played!

Oh, yes… As much as I love my organist friends, they are definitely an odd bunch. One of them actually does not like to hang out with other organists. He’d rather be around singers and other musicians.

 

[PhilipCal]

About 100 years ago, St Pius X took a very strong stand against “Modernism” in the Church, and in the Liturgy. The use of percussion and wind instruments had come into vogue, and St. Pius reacted strongly to it. Don’t ask me the title of the document he wrote condemning “Modernism”, I can’t recall. The first 15 years of my life I spent under the Pontificate of Pope Pius XII. The only instrument I recall at Mass, was the organ. Fast forward to the present. In my parish, we have both piano and organ. The Sunday Life-Teen Mass utilizes both guitar and drums. For me, the key word is “reverence”. Personally, I have no objection to the less traditional instruments being played at Mass, provided it’s done with reverence. One of the most beautiful renditions of Holy God, we Praise Thy Name, I’ve ever heard, was played by the Marine Band.

 

[MusicMan]

Re. post #6? who thought it terrible that there may be more bassoonists than organists in the diocese: Why terrible?

Let’s be accurate. I said awful.

What have you got against the bassoon, an instrument with a rich, mellow, pleasant voice?

Quite a lot, actually. I’m a public school band director. There’s nothing pleasant about the sound of those things.

 

[Sarabande]

Quite a lot, actually. I’m a public school band director. There’s nothing pleasant about the sound of those things.

I guess if it was played by a high school kid who hasn’t mastered the instrument, it wouldn’t sound pleasant. I’ve heard high school kids play them too. Not too nice sometimes. Ha! ha! It’s not my favorite instrument, but I’ve heard it performed in orchestras by musicians who have mastered it. It’s a pleasant sound. But that is a subjective opinion. Mozart apparently didn’t like the sound of the trumpet from a very young age. I don’t think he composed anything for trumpet solo. I personally love the sound of the trumpet. I’m biased, though, my dad used to play it and I have colleagues who know how to play that instrument beautifully.

 

[MusicMan]

I happen to have a very fine recording of Mozart’s Concert in D Major for Trumpet and Orchestra, recorded by Arturo Sandoval of all people. Of course, it was by Wolfgang’s father, Leopold.

 

[Sarabande]

You folks bemoaning the cost of an organ haven’t kept up with the times. There are now digital organs (which play digitized tones sampled from real pipe organs) that cost no more than a decent piano.

That’s true and I think it’s a decent alternative if a parish can’t afford a real organ. Although, mst of the organists I know can’t stand the sound of digital organs, nor do they enjoy playing them. I can tell the difference in sound, but I think most “lay” people wouldn’t tell the difference and if you can get a good organist to play the repertoire, it would at least give congregants an opportunity to hear something “different”, since apparently some churches have stopped using their organs.

 

[Sarabande]

I happen to have a very fine recording of Mozart’s Concert in D Major for Trumpet and Orchestra, recorded by Arturo Sandoval of all people. Of course, it was by Wolfgang’s father, Leopold.

Interesting. I’d like to hear it. What is the cd label and the orchestra.

 

[MusicMan]

You folks bemoaning the cost of an organ haven’t kept up with the times. There are now digital organs (which play digitized tones sampled from real pipe organs) that cost no more than a decent piano.

This is completely false. A digital organ costs significantly more than a decent piano does. A decent pianos costs close to $10,000 new. A digital organ is going to run $20,000 on the lowest end, and $60,000 for something that will be appropriate for the size of most Catholic churches.

If you’re referring to digital keyboards, you’re just insulting people who actually want to hear (and play) a quality instrument.

My church does not have a working organ, but they have a lovely digital keyboard. I tried the organ settings on it once. Father thought it sounded acceptable (“as good as the real thing!”). I thought it sounded like garbage and told him as much. I’m using the accoustic piano until he lets me reinstall the old organ or start a fund raiser to buy a new one.

 

[VociMike]

This is completely false. A digital organ costs significantly more than a decent piano does. A decent pianos costs close to $10,000 new. A digital organ is going to run $20,000 on the lowest end, and $60,000 for something that will be appropriate for the size of most Catholic churches.

Who said I was talking exclusively about organs for churches?

{from earlier in this thread} Did you either buy an organ for your home (extremely expensive)…

One can find new digital organs in the $10,000 range (I know, I Googled them up), and used ones for a couple of thousand. And the march of technology is driving the price of all electronic devices down, not up.

Of course a larger and/or more elaborate organ for a larger church is going to cost more. But even $60,000 for a 30 year investment in liturgical music is not the killer some people are making it out to be. And there are plenty of outfits (some with websites) that have used digital organs for sale that will fit the bill and cost much less.

Just because they’re not a real pipe organ doesn’t mean they don’t have a legitimate role to play both for those learning the organ, and for some churches and some budgets.

If you’re referring to digital keyboards, you’re just insulting people who actually want to hear (and play) a quality instrument.

Then it’s a good thing for all of us that I wasn’t referring to them.