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Mark651
Guest
Agreed Chris…btw, if anyone had been caught banging cymbals, timbrels or playing harps within the Temple or the Holy of Holies they would have been stoned! That was for outside the Temple, on the streets in their homes, spontaneously, etc.
I think that a lot of it is well meant. I also think that a lot of it is lazziness or not wanting to rock the boat. Much of what the Church teaches is not…touchy feely, PC. Better to put on a show!
That said, Catholicism is NOT a sombre faith! I think that there are many times and occasions that priests and parishes should engage kids and encourage them to express themselves in their own terms (JP2!). I don’t think that many do nearly enough of it. If they did, they might find that there’s more in a young person’s head and other ways to their hearts than MTV/Top 40. They might discover an urgent, unarticulated need in them to hear something new!
I think that a lot of it is well meant. I also think that a lot of it is lazziness or not wanting to rock the boat. Much of what the Church teaches is not…touchy feely, PC. Better to put on a show!
That said, Catholicism is NOT a sombre faith! I think that there are many times and occasions that priests and parishes should engage kids and encourage them to express themselves in their own terms (JP2!). I don’t think that many do nearly enough of it. If they did, they might find that there’s more in a young person’s head and other ways to their hearts than MTV/Top 40. They might discover an urgent, unarticulated need in them to hear something new!
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Mark651
Guest
Lol-Not that young! “Youngish”. I just wanted people to know that I’m not a crotchety old guy and that most (All!) of the people my age (late 30’s/early 40’s) who I know that have come back (way back) to the Church would agree. Some, I’m sure, wouldn’t.
It’s nice to know that there still exists decency, reverence, and taste in the young.
Thanks though!
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VociMike
Guest
Very interesting point. If it wouldn’t be appropriate for your wedding ceremony, why is it appropriate for the Mass?
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VociMike
Guest
I think this is the core of the matter. People who think they have to attract young people by giving them “their music” (and it’s usually just a lame idea of what their music is, not even coming close to the music of the day) don’t believe that the Catholic faith alone is enough. It is this lack of confidence among the folks in charge that has trashed the liturgy. They don’t think anybody could possibly be interested in the Mass as celebrated down the centuries. No, it has to be re-packaged, All New! Improved! Better than Ever! The Modern Mass!
So they tack on music that was never good to begin with and is now hopelessly outdated to boot. Rather than timeless music they substitute music who’s time has come and gone – that’s why the average age at our LifeTeen Masses is about 50. And they stand back and think how much they’ve improved the ancient liturgy, when all they have really done is to disrespect both the liturgy and the young people who’s tastes and ability to absorb the true faith they always underestimate.
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setitstraight
Guest
I really enjoy drums and a subtle baas guitar. The drums can really get you into a service.
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TheApologist
Guest
Please post your own opinions as to whether instruments like the piano, drums, and guitar should or shouldn’t be in the Mass. Please post all Church documents on the matter as well.
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BobP123
Guest
The organ is the only instrument that I know of that is in the Church documents. There could be others. What’s your point?
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Lepanto
Guest
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otjm
Guest
All of which is not entirely on point. I have yet to hear “lounge music” during Mass, although I have heard piano for something in the range of 33 years. Some music is better suited to an organ, some better suited to a pino. For those who are purists and want to insist that only organ music is acceptible, they are welcome to sit with one another and bemoan how terrible liturgical music is today. That group is somewhat akin to the group who thinks that within secular music, only symphonic music qualifies.
As far as his opinion on drums, most liturguical music I have heard is not significantly enhanced by them; however, his comment about serene contemplation of God seems to presume that only music which causes serene contemplation is legitimate; I would suggest that music can also be lively praise and legitimate.
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Cat
Guest
From the document posted, it looks like pretty much all instruments are allowed, with certain conditions. Yay!
I play piano, and I play for Mass whenever I am needed and I’m not working.
Some people prefer organ for Mass. I’m sorry. I don’t play the organ.
I tried to learn when I was a teenager, but I had too much going on in my life and didn’t have the time to drive down to the church everyday and practice the organ along with two hours a day I was already practicing the piano.
I wish I could play the organ. I think it’s beautiful, the most beautiful of all the instruments. I always stick around after Mass to hear the organ postlude. To me, the organ is what we will hear in heaven. I really wish that I had been homeschooled when I was a child, because then I might have had time to learn. But back then, no one homeschooled except for the SDAs, and they had to hide because it was illegal in most states.
I would like to say something that might sound a little snotty. All of those who believe that the pipe organ is the only instrument that is acceptable for liturgical worship–did you have your children take organ lessons? Did you make them stick with it even when they begged to quit? Did you either buy an organ for your home (extremely expensive), or arrange with a local church or university to give you a key or code so that your child(ren) could practice on a real pipe organ?
Maybe you didn’t have children. Did you offer to pay for another child(ren) from a deserving family(families) to take organ lessons? Did you provide the scholarship money for books, and pick the child(ren) up and take them home? Did you drive them to the church to practice? Did you attend their recitals and encourage them to stick with it?
Or did you yourself learn to play the organ?
Again, I don’t wish to sound mean-spirited, but this is a sore, sore point with me as a pianist, and one of my very few “gripes” against people in the Catholic Church. Sometimes I think the “organ only” people sound like the Protestants who think that the New Testament just dropped out of the sky and descended to all the “real” Christians shortly after Pentecost. It seems to me that they think that organists are all over the place, and all the church has to do is call the Organ Store and they will send a whole flock of competent organists over to play the organ so that the church can *properly *worship, instead of having that “loungey” piano or unseemingly guitar played for the holy Mass.
Playing the organ takes many years of hard work. I live in a city where there is a thriving music community. I am an active member of the oldest local music club in the U.S., which is very lively in our city. I think it is safe to say that there are fewer people who play organ in our city than any other instrument. I’ll bet there are more bassoonists in our city than organists. I work with a lot of children and teenagers in various musical venues, and I don’t know ONE child, Catholic or Protestant or even non-believing, who takes organ lessons. Piano, yes. Guitar, violin, trumpet, everything else you can imagine, including keyboards. But not organ.
I guess what I’m saying is that if you want organ music for Mass, then do whatever you can to provide organists, because nowadays, they are rarer than a Baptist in a bar.
I play piano, and I play for Mass whenever I am needed and I’m not working.
Some people prefer organ for Mass. I’m sorry. I don’t play the organ.
I tried to learn when I was a teenager, but I had too much going on in my life and didn’t have the time to drive down to the church everyday and practice the organ along with two hours a day I was already practicing the piano.
I wish I could play the organ. I think it’s beautiful, the most beautiful of all the instruments. I always stick around after Mass to hear the organ postlude. To me, the organ is what we will hear in heaven. I really wish that I had been homeschooled when I was a child, because then I might have had time to learn. But back then, no one homeschooled except for the SDAs, and they had to hide because it was illegal in most states.
I would like to say something that might sound a little snotty. All of those who believe that the pipe organ is the only instrument that is acceptable for liturgical worship–did you have your children take organ lessons? Did you make them stick with it even when they begged to quit? Did you either buy an organ for your home (extremely expensive), or arrange with a local church or university to give you a key or code so that your child(ren) could practice on a real pipe organ?
Maybe you didn’t have children. Did you offer to pay for another child(ren) from a deserving family(families) to take organ lessons? Did you provide the scholarship money for books, and pick the child(ren) up and take them home? Did you drive them to the church to practice? Did you attend their recitals and encourage them to stick with it?
Or did you yourself learn to play the organ?
Again, I don’t wish to sound mean-spirited, but this is a sore, sore point with me as a pianist, and one of my very few “gripes” against people in the Catholic Church. Sometimes I think the “organ only” people sound like the Protestants who think that the New Testament just dropped out of the sky and descended to all the “real” Christians shortly after Pentecost. It seems to me that they think that organists are all over the place, and all the church has to do is call the Organ Store and they will send a whole flock of competent organists over to play the organ so that the church can *properly *worship, instead of having that “loungey” piano or unseemingly guitar played for the holy Mass.
Playing the organ takes many years of hard work. I live in a city where there is a thriving music community. I am an active member of the oldest local music club in the U.S., which is very lively in our city. I think it is safe to say that there are fewer people who play organ in our city than any other instrument. I’ll bet there are more bassoonists in our city than organists. I work with a lot of children and teenagers in various musical venues, and I don’t know ONE child, Catholic or Protestant or even non-believing, who takes organ lessons. Piano, yes. Guitar, violin, trumpet, everything else you can imagine, including keyboards. But not organ.
I guess what I’m saying is that if you want organ music for Mass, then do whatever you can to provide organists, because nowadays, they are rarer than a Baptist in a bar.
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CarrieH
Guest
Were you even able to find a local church which would allow your student to be there after hours to practice? Kids are in school during the regular business hours of most churches, and the churches are locked after hours for security reasons.
I did, and found myself in a church which has no organ, only a piano. So I play my flute instead, and serve as cantor from time to time. I could go to the cathedral and substitute if needed, but I’d rather be in my home parish church where I am more needed. The cathedral has a “real” organist with a master’s degree in music; they don’t need me anyway.
Yep. And if you don’t use it, you lose it. I’d be lucky to still be able to play the pieces in that green German Chorale Preludes book; you organists know the one I mean. Yet once upon a time, I could play the Franck “Pièce Heroique”…
Why bother slaving away for hours on end, only to have your gig eliminated and replaced by a “contemporary praise band?!” Besides, playing a band instrument provides some fun social benefits which one doesn’t get sitting alone in the organ loft.
Amen. This is sad, but very true. Perhaps those of you complaining the loudest might contact your local chapter of the American Guild of Organists and see how you might help out with organ outreach programs and other educational offerings. agohq.org/home.html This problem will not go away on its own; aggressive measures must be taken if we are to reverse the disturbing trend of organ-playing as it becomes a dying art.
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Elzee
Guest
I noticed drums were played extensively during the Mass Pope Benedict celebrated in Brazil.
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elliotfc
Guest
I’m thinking most here would be aghast at the liturgical music at my church. It’s an 80% latino population.
The music is often very rhythmical, forcibly so. No dancing in the aisles, definitely hand clapping, head nodding and all that. Very celebratory music, incorporating any latin rhythm you can name, bachata merengue ranchero, whatever. The chord structures are very repititive.
Anyhow from what I gather this is a carryover from what you find in the “typical” church in…at least Central America and the Caribbean. Don’t know many Mexicans. A lot of the time someone will hand me a tape that they made while at Mass in, say, El Salvador, and I’ll jot down the chords and melody line.
I don’t know if the the question “is it liturgical?” is apropos. It is liturgical, in that hundreds of millions of people every weekend have this as their standard in their liturgy. If we’re talking ideal liturgy, I don’t know what to say about that. If we’re talking church documents, I’d bet my dog Hu-Chu that there ain’t no church documents prohibiting pianos and drums and bass guitars.
As for “is it allowed”, I’d bet the majority of bishops in the world, and probably 95% of the bishops in the Americas, have attended masses with pianos/drums/guitars, so that answers that question.
I get a lot of stereotyping when discussing this particular matter. Often people insist that the entirety of latino liturgical music is fast, footstomping stuff you’d hear at your local dance club, and that is certainly not the case. Tempos and stylings and moods run the entire spectrum. I’m of the opinion that there is actually more of a focus on lyrics in latino music than traditional hymns (although this probably has to do more with the fact that hymnals are rarely emphasized in the latino community).
As for the english masses, I am a pianist first and an accidental organist, and have been for 15 years in several churches. This has been tolerated I suppose because of supply and demand. I’m actually exiting this particular field…to be honest, from a musical standpoint, I’m completely and absolutely bored, and I’m liable these days to noodle and doodle into bizarre realms which causes guitarists who I play with much confusion and consternation.
One of the experiences that I most enjoyed was getting musicians from the latino community to play “english” music, and the other way around. Bilingual masses, in my opinion, are inherently aesthetically unpleasing, but from a music standpoint, I’d like to attend a bilingual mass that is as unprofessional lyproficient as the ones we have at my church.
-Elliot
The music is often very rhythmical, forcibly so. No dancing in the aisles, definitely hand clapping, head nodding and all that. Very celebratory music, incorporating any latin rhythm you can name, bachata merengue ranchero, whatever. The chord structures are very repititive.
Anyhow from what I gather this is a carryover from what you find in the “typical” church in…at least Central America and the Caribbean. Don’t know many Mexicans. A lot of the time someone will hand me a tape that they made while at Mass in, say, El Salvador, and I’ll jot down the chords and melody line.
I don’t know if the the question “is it liturgical?” is apropos. It is liturgical, in that hundreds of millions of people every weekend have this as their standard in their liturgy. If we’re talking ideal liturgy, I don’t know what to say about that. If we’re talking church documents, I’d bet my dog Hu-Chu that there ain’t no church documents prohibiting pianos and drums and bass guitars.
As for “is it allowed”, I’d bet the majority of bishops in the world, and probably 95% of the bishops in the Americas, have attended masses with pianos/drums/guitars, so that answers that question.
I get a lot of stereotyping when discussing this particular matter. Often people insist that the entirety of latino liturgical music is fast, footstomping stuff you’d hear at your local dance club, and that is certainly not the case. Tempos and stylings and moods run the entire spectrum. I’m of the opinion that there is actually more of a focus on lyrics in latino music than traditional hymns (although this probably has to do more with the fact that hymnals are rarely emphasized in the latino community).
As for the english masses, I am a pianist first and an accidental organist, and have been for 15 years in several churches. This has been tolerated I suppose because of supply and demand. I’m actually exiting this particular field…to be honest, from a musical standpoint, I’m completely and absolutely bored, and I’m liable these days to noodle and doodle into bizarre realms which causes guitarists who I play with much confusion and consternation.
One of the experiences that I most enjoyed was getting musicians from the latino community to play “english” music, and the other way around. Bilingual masses, in my opinion, are inherently aesthetically unpleasing, but from a music standpoint, I’d like to attend a bilingual mass that is as unprofessional lyproficient as the ones we have at my church.
-Elliot
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elliotfc
Guest
Here’s an interesting link:
getreligion.org/?p=1713
I’m of this opinion. Let’s say…we get a decree saying pianos/drums/guitars are out. Organs or nothing. Should this happen, we would have fewer and better and whiter Catholics. But then at least we’d have enough priests to go around.
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Cat
Guest
Actually, CarrieH, I know of several churches in our city who allow students to practice on their pianos (I don’t know of any organ students). I’m not sure if they charge a fee; I think they do. (Nothing wrong with that, IMO.)
While I was growing up, I practiced for a couple of hours a day and several hours on Saturdays, on the grand piano at my church. I had a key to the church, and I would walk up to the church (6 blocks away) and let myself in and practice. My piano at home was an old jingly upright and not adequate for the type of music that I was working on.
We also allow students to practice on the Steinway pianos at our music club, although there is a fee of $20/hour.
I’m pretty certain that the universities would also allow students to practice, since the “Suzuki” classes are held there.
While I was growing up, I practiced for a couple of hours a day and several hours on Saturdays, on the grand piano at my church. I had a key to the church, and I would walk up to the church (6 blocks away) and let myself in and practice. My piano at home was an old jingly upright and not adequate for the type of music that I was working on.
We also allow students to practice on the Steinway pianos at our music club, although there is a fee of $20/hour.
I’m pretty certain that the universities would also allow students to practice, since the “Suzuki” classes are held there.
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Cat
Guest
CarrieH, your point about the “gig” being eliminated for a P and W band was excellent.
While I was still Protestant, my husband and I returned for a few years to the church I grew up in. I had played the piano there for years while I was growing up, and I was darn GOOD! A lot of the people in the church knew it, and they kept asking when I was going to play.
The Music Minister wouldn’t let me. In two years, I never once played piano for a worship service. He was a world-famous CCM artist, and all the services were his “gigs.” He and his keyboard and his drum machine provided the music for ALL the services. His choir was an audition-only “Praise Chorale,” and all the music was tracks that he layed down.
He wasn’t mean or sinful or anything. He just didn’t want to share.
He died a few years ago. God rest his soul.
Also, you mentioned that a band instrument is more social than sitting in an organ loft. That’s certainly true. Even piano is more sociable. I found as a kid lots of opportunities to play for friends. I learned a lot of the popular songs of my time, and teenager friends would gather round and sing with my accompaniment.
According to the former organist of our large parish, there are 125 Catholic parishes in our state that have NO music of any kind–no organ, no piano, no guitar.
So what’s the answer? It’s all up to the parents. You simply have to get your kids involved in music lessons, preferable organ/piano. Nobody ever said it was easy. But it’s the only way our churches will have musicians in the future.
While I was still Protestant, my husband and I returned for a few years to the church I grew up in. I had played the piano there for years while I was growing up, and I was darn GOOD! A lot of the people in the church knew it, and they kept asking when I was going to play.
The Music Minister wouldn’t let me. In two years, I never once played piano for a worship service. He was a world-famous CCM artist, and all the services were his “gigs.” He and his keyboard and his drum machine provided the music for ALL the services. His choir was an audition-only “Praise Chorale,” and all the music was tracks that he layed down.
He wasn’t mean or sinful or anything. He just didn’t want to share.
He died a few years ago. God rest his soul.
Also, you mentioned that a band instrument is more social than sitting in an organ loft. That’s certainly true. Even piano is more sociable. I found as a kid lots of opportunities to play for friends. I learned a lot of the popular songs of my time, and teenager friends would gather round and sing with my accompaniment.
According to the former organist of our large parish, there are 125 Catholic parishes in our state that have NO music of any kind–no organ, no piano, no guitar.
So what’s the answer? It’s all up to the parents. You simply have to get your kids involved in music lessons, preferable organ/piano. Nobody ever said it was easy. But it’s the only way our churches will have musicians in the future.
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elliotfc
Guest
My church allows me to teach at the church…just 2 students, during down time. I keep it hush hush, but I don’t think anyone would care otherwise.
Universities with music schools and a plethora of pianos…they typically aren’t supervised. Meaning you can sneak into a room and pretend like you’re a student and nobody would know otherwise.
Certainly they charge Suzuki teachers for the use of rooms.
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Cat
Guest
Addendum to the last post:
Yes, parents have to get their kids involved in music lessons.
That means finding a music teacher.
In our city, that’s a challenge. Many of them are booked solid. At our music club, we have a list of all the music teachers in the city. Even the ones without Master’s Degrees are swamped with students.
My cousin is a piano teacher (in another city). She has 200 students.
I wonder WHERE all these students are at Mass? Why don’t they play? (I think a lot of them quit by the time they are in Middle school–too much going on. Too bad.)
My daugher took piano and violin lessons for several years. She quit violin and decided to find a more advanced piano teacher. She was on waiting lists until she graduated from high school. She ended up taking classroom piano at her college. She can play simple pieces, but is not capable enough to play for a Mass.
But while she was “waiting,” she took voice lessons and is currently minoring in music. She hopes to be a local musician someday, directing a choir at church, singing at church, singing in local musical productions, etc. She has the voice of an angel.
Considering that a piano teacher in our city makes about $20/hour, it’s not a bad career. Again, it’s all up to the parents. Are you willing to provide us with the next generation of music teachers? It’s not easy. Your kids will probably gripe and beg to quit at times. It’s not easy to know when it’s just whining, and when it’s a sincere desire to quit from a sincere person who is not cut out for music. My dad wouldn’t let me quit, and I’m grateful every day of my life. I love playing piano, especially at Mass. I get to provide accompaniment for the angels!
Yes, parents have to get their kids involved in music lessons.
That means finding a music teacher.
In our city, that’s a challenge. Many of them are booked solid. At our music club, we have a list of all the music teachers in the city. Even the ones without Master’s Degrees are swamped with students.
My cousin is a piano teacher (in another city). She has 200 students.
I wonder WHERE all these students are at Mass? Why don’t they play? (I think a lot of them quit by the time they are in Middle school–too much going on. Too bad.)
My daugher took piano and violin lessons for several years. She quit violin and decided to find a more advanced piano teacher. She was on waiting lists until she graduated from high school. She ended up taking classroom piano at her college. She can play simple pieces, but is not capable enough to play for a Mass.
But while she was “waiting,” she took voice lessons and is currently minoring in music. She hopes to be a local musician someday, directing a choir at church, singing at church, singing in local musical productions, etc. She has the voice of an angel.
Considering that a piano teacher in our city makes about $20/hour, it’s not a bad career. Again, it’s all up to the parents. Are you willing to provide us with the next generation of music teachers? It’s not easy. Your kids will probably gripe and beg to quit at times. It’s not easy to know when it’s just whining, and when it’s a sincere desire to quit from a sincere person who is not cut out for music. My dad wouldn’t let me quit, and I’m grateful every day of my life. I love playing piano, especially at Mass. I get to provide accompaniment for the angels!
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