Pick and chose your Catholic liturgy

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I think it’s quite probable that sometime in the future, either in Benedict’s reign or in the next pope’s, we will see a re-issue of the Tridentine Missal. Summorum Pontificum very much envisioned it, with an updated calendar for feasts for newly-canonized saints.

I think if people really understood that the Tridentine mass was never forbidden, and that no one is being forced to go to Tridentine masses, that Novus Ordo-preferring people would be much more open to their celebration in churches.

And about the fiddleback chasubles. I quite like them, especially when worn by bishops over their pontifical dalmatics, which bishops are still entitled to wear even at Novus Ordo masses, and are recommended to at solemn occasions, but they rarely do.



This look is quite good. Obviously, this is Archbishop Lefebvre, but that doesn’t change the validity of how good his vestments look. I quite like how the chasuble sits on his shoulders. It reminds me vaguely of military epaulettes. I think the return of the pontifical gloves would be nice too, as well as the slipper things. The bugia (hand candle carried next to a bishop in procession) is also a nice tradition.

I’d also like to see a return to the wearing of cope over the alb whenever asperges is done, with vesting in chasuble afterwards.

I would also like to make a comment about the melding of the two Forms. Eventually, I think there will be one form of the mass again. In some other thread addressing this topic, someone mentioned about how it will never happen because the two Forms as they exist now are so different. Well, that doesn’t really give any strength to the argument that they will never come together as one. The sacrificial nature needs to make its way back into the Ordinary Form.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I would also like to make a comment about the melding of the two Forms. Eventually, I think there will be one form of the mass again. In some other thread addressing this topic, someone mentioned about how it will never happen because the two Forms as they exist now are so different. Well, that doesn’t really give any strength to the argument that they will never come together as one. The sacrificial nature needs to make its way back into the Ordinary Form.
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I do think that the two could eventually converge into a single form. The OF rubrics need to be clarified, but if some of the “innovations” were abandoned I think more traditionalist would be willing to go to OF masses. The OF was meant to be an evolution, not a revolution. The biggest stumbling block for many I think is the perceived lack of reverence for the sacrifice and a lack of wonder at the mystery. That’s not to say it’s not there, but it hard for many to see it when their is a push to focus on joy and love without more than a head nod to sacrifice and repentance. That being said I don’t know if I will see it in my life time, but I can keep praying that it happens for my children.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I quite like them, especially when worn by bishops over their pontifical dalmatics, which bishops are still entitled to wear even at Novus Ordo masses, and are recommended to at solemn occasions, but they rarely do.
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Mine does almost every week 😛
 
YoungTradCath said:
This look is quite good. Obviously, this is Archbishop Lefebvre, but that doesn’t change the validity of how good his vestments look. I quite like how the chasuble sits on his shoulders. It reminds me vaguely of military epaulettes. I think the return of the pontifical gloves would be nice too, as well as the slipper things. The bugia (hand candle carried next to a bishop in procession) is also a nice tradition.
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I also love the look of fiddlebacks. So much more dignified. I have nothing against gothic vestments, but like with the EF, you know when you have a fiddleback, there’s a pretty darn good chance that it looks dignified. Can you say the same with the run of the mill gothic chusable?
 
TheMc said:
I also love the look of fiddlebacks. So much more dignified. I have nothing against gothic vestments, but like with the EF, you know when you have a fiddleback, there’s a pretty darn good chance that it looks dignified. Can you say the same with the run of the mill gothic chusable?
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There are plenty of bad-looking fiddlebacks, and using slabbink chasubles as an example of the gothic style is unfair, as they are unquestionably horrible.

But I will propose a compromise somewhere in the middle: I prefer the Borromean and St Philip Neri styles!
 
TheMc said:
I also love the look of fiddlebacks. So much more dignified. I have nothing against gothic vestments, but like with the EF, you know when you have a fiddleback, there’s a pretty darn good chance that it looks dignified. Can you say the same with the run of the mill gothic chusable?
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Well, if we reintroduced the fiddleback into widespread use with churches currently lacking in proper reverence, I have to think we’d quickly see some pretty ugly, overly-simplictic versions of those too.

In the same vein, a gothic vestment is equally capable of reverence and beauty:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’ve got more to add on this pick-your-liturgy topic, but I’m offline for now…in the meantime, anyone know if the 1962 missal you all keep referencing is available in a free, virtual form somewhere?
 
PrayForMeStJude said:
There are plenty of bad-looking fiddlebacks, and using slabbink chasubles as an example of the gothic style is unfair, as they are unquestionably horrible.

But I will propose a compromise somewhere in the middle: I prefer the Borromean and St Philip Neri styles!
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Yes, that was pretty bad, but unfortunately, a lot of those are what I often see in various places around the country. So it is a terrible design, but unfortunately, they are quite common.

The Neri cut is also quite nice.

For those of you who don’t know what this is, here’s a good example.
 
To be honest, as long as the vestment fills the role, and is appropriately dignified for worship, I see no reason why the particular cut of the chasuble can’t be left up to the individual parishes.

Back to the topic of the mass - I agree with what was said above, and what I said earlier…both the EF and the OF have their positives and their negatives. Ideally, IMO, the best elements are taken from each to create a dignified, yet understandable and participatory worship service.

Somewhat sidenote - it seems to me that it might be more appropriate to move the penitential and kyrie to the very beginning of the service, directly after the entrance procession, and before the sprinking…that we first gather, then confess, then ask for mercy, then cleanse, then celebrate mass…or am I missing the point of the traditional order?
 
mburn16 said:
To be honest, as long as the vestment fills the role, and is appropriately dignified for worship, I see no reason why the particular cut of the chasuble can’t be left up to the individual parishes.
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Oh, of course. If a vestment is dignified, I don’t care about the cut. We’re just talking about the different types that we think look especially nice.
 
mburn16 said:
Well, if we reintroduced the fiddleback into widespread use with churches currently lacking in proper reverence, I have to think we’d quickly see some pretty ugly, overly-simplictic versions of those too.

In the same vein, a gothic vestment is equally capable of reverence and beauty:

click here to see image posted above]
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Most certainly. Some gothic vestments are really quite amazing. Look at some of the stuff by Watts and Co. Put your mouse over the images, and get a close up view. A M A Z I N G stuff there.

Rose chusables
A Marian/Gold Chasuble
A Green Chusable
Another Green one
A white one
A Red one

I mean seriously: There’s some liturgical eye-candy for you. 😃
mburn16 said:
I’ve got more to add on this pick-your-liturgy topic, but I’m offline for now…in the meantime, anyone know if the 1962 missal you all keep referencing is available in a free, virtual form somewhere?
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sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/
 
Getting back on the initial topic, Mc - was there any comment you had on what I wrote a bit earlier:
Somewhat sidenote - it seems to me that it might be more appropriate to move the penitential and kyrie to the very beginning of the service, directly after the entrance procession, and before the sprinking…that we first gather, then confess, then ask for mercy, then cleanse, then celebrate mass…or am I missing the point of the traditional order?
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Are you familiar with the logic of the traditional order, which placed the Kyrie (plea for mercy), after the sprinkling ritual, and after the start of the mass?

It seems to me we would want to confess and ask for forgiveness before cleansing and before we began celebrating mass.

But as I’ve said, I’m still learning about stuff - a lifelong Catholic, though perhaps not the best one. 😦
 
mburn16 said:
Getting back on the initial topic, Mc - was there any comment you had on what I wrote a bit earlier:

Are you familiar with the logic of the traditional order, which placed the Kyrie (plea for mercy), after the sprinkling ritual, and after the start of the mass?

It seems to me we would want to confess and ask for forgiveness before cleansing and before we began celebrating mass.

But as I’ve said, I’m still learning about stuff - a lifelong Catholic, though perhaps not the best one. 😦
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Hmmm… I don’t know a ton about that, but here’s one small point that might help make sense of it:

In the EF, the asperges is actually not part of the Mass. It’s before. That’s why the introit is not sung during the procession if there’s an asperges.

That’s all I have though.
 
Thanks…I actually knew that - but its still useful information.

Oh well, title of the thread was “pick your liturgy”

I guess in mine, we’d confess first.

Maybe its a good thing nobody puts me in charge of writing the missal.
 
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