I think it’s important to teach both our daughters and sons early that this is not true. Their marriage vows will not include any mention of obedience, They are called to mutual submission – only the minor children of the couple are bound to obedience.
The problem with this is how many Christian husbands falsely look at Christian leadership as having its analogy in the way those who are of the world look at authority, and not as Christ looked at authority. Even though people marveled at Our Lord’s authority in every respect, both his command over the natural and supernatural worlds and his total certainty to make flat and unassailable declarations on matters of Torah, Our Lord poured himself out, always leading in submission to the Father and as the servant of those given to him.
Whether it is in a monastery or a family or even a diocese, the obedience required is not personal obedience shown to the one in authority. Rather, the one in authority leads all in obedience to the ways of God, to whom obedience is ultimately due. This is why the commandment to honor our parents comes right after the commandments outlining our duties to God. Showing obedience to those in authority is an extension of obedience to God, but those in authority have a duty to ask for obedience that is ultimately obedience to God. They are humble servants in this equation, stewards of authority not their own, not demi-gods.
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I think it’s important to teach both our daughters and sons early that this is not true. Their marriage vows will not include any mention of obedience, They are called to mutual submission – only the minor children of the couple are bound to obedience.
I am most concerned with the phrase, “The wife must both respect and obey her husband but the husband is only bound to respect his wife.”
Right. Is what this girl is doing a bit on the extreme side? Yes, but that doesn’t to me automatically signal that she has to be disturbed - just that she knows what can disturb her parents.
Tbrightson, I’ll be praying for your family. Stay strong and don’t let the opinions of a 12 year old get you down. I had a very confrontational daughter, even screamed at me in front of her friend once that she hated me, I had simply pointed out she had not cleaned her room as her mother had asked and then told her to do. I just looked at her and told her I couldn’t control how she felt about things, but she would do as she was told. If you stick to your guns, are consistent, are on the same page with the wife, and reward as well as punish— you do get through this, it does get better.
She is the youngest and her sisters do not talk like that? You and your wife do not talk like that? (Be honest…not even when you are very angry, right?) If you use that kind of language, it is time to talk to your daughter and agree that it does not become either one of you and that you both need to stop together. Just as you can appreciate when hearing her how bad it is, she can imagine listening to you and realize that foul language doesn’t make any points with anybody. Some tolerate any kind of language, that is true, but no one really thinks more highly of those who talk like that.
You make some very good points. I can swear at times, but its not a habitaul thing. Rarely the Fbomb. Wife swears even less…The other kids dont, at least not around us/in public. When we told her swearing is not acceptable, we didnt get the “well you do!” response one would expect if we did a lot of that. She will often get physical when mad, as with her sisters and even me once. Yep she needs to keep yourself under control.
She is the youngest and her sisters do not talk like that? You and your wife do not talk like that? (Be honest…not even when you are very angry, right?) If you use that kind of language, it is time to talk to your daughter and agree that it does not become either one of you and that you both need to stop together. Just as you can appreciate when hearing her how bad it is, she can imagine listening to you and realize that foul language doesn’t make any points with anybody. Some tolerate any kind of language, that is true, but no one really thinks more highly of those who talk like that.
I think that you may want to talk to her about the possibility that she may have picked up your temper. At any rate, ask her what she would think if you or her mother were to talk as she has been talking. Do respected people talk like that? Unfortunately, sometimes they do. (Never lie to your children–they are not stupid.) Do they lose respect when they lose their cool and use that kind of talk where they can be overheard? Yes, they do. It is the language that signals a loss of self-control. It is also a kind of language that easily routes its way through the part of the brain that blurts things out. (People familiar with stroke victims can tell you that language does have different routes, such that people might be able to speak clearly via the “blurt it out” route but can only speak jibberish through the route they control.)
Yes, it is reasonable to point out to her that she has to have control of her temper, her mouth, and her actions before she can have an i-Phone. The things you text are there forever. Someone can always find them. If you can’t think before you talk or act where someone can hear you and see you in person, you won’t think before you text or talk on a phone or when someone is capturing on video. If you don’t think before you text or talk on a phone, you are going to say something regrettable that you cannot banish from what can easily become the public record.
The new lesson of the 21st century is that everyone can hear you all of the time, can film you anywhere and everywhere, and can publish what you said and did in ways that you cannot control and can never get back. There has never been a time in history when those who lose their cool will be at a bigger disadvantage than they will be in our current technological climate. If your daughter has one outburst like she just had as an adult, she could ruin her career. It is good that you and your wife are on the same page on this one. Stick to your guns.
In the meantime, spend a lot of time with your daughters, but especially that 12 year old. Spend time in ways that you will both enjoy and spend time in which you learn about her particular gifts and view of the world. Draw out the best in her and openly appreciate the best in her. You and your wife need to have your “emotional bank account” full with your girls, but especially with that one.
What you say is true. The husband must use his authority for the benefit, particularly the spiritual benefit, of his family. Nevertheless, he does have authority and the wife sins if she disobeys him, unless his commands are genuinely harmful to herself or her children, or just beyond what he can reasonably expect from her. Just as the pope is there to serve us, and parents are there to serve their children, so the husband is the servant of his wife.
Perhaps you could quote the appropriate Catechism paragraph on this point?
You believe this because the submission of the wife to the husband is a teaching of the Church you have not been exposed to. Please do not teach your children otherwise because you would be teaching them a dangerous, subversive and poisonous heresy. Read scripture and the doctors and fathers of the Church, read old catechisms and other works of instruction. This teaching is washed over in our time, partly because the husband so often abuses his authority but mainly because so many women simply will not accept it, either because they misunderstand it or because they have been infected by the spirit of the age. It is not necessary for the wife to take a vow of obedience to her husband to be bound to obey him - a Christian wife is bound to obey her husband because this is the moral law.
Ephesians 5:
Are you married? Because in all the years I’ve been reading threads on CAF and the more recent years I’ve been participating in them, I’ve found that almost all of the men who are this obsessed with “wifely obedience” are single. Either that or they are trolling. The married men who actively contribute to these threads on the subject are not fixated on the topic nor do they display an unhealthy interest in micromanaging each detail of “marital roles”. Perhaps it’s the fact the happily married men actually have real life experience in what a Sacramental Marriage involves on a daily basis and that does not include expecting or demanding child-like obedience from someone they share the marital bed with and instead of constantly harping on obedience they encourage striving towards better communication and working together as a team.
The Bible also tells us, among other things, that we shouldn’t wear clothes of certain fibers, have sex during a period or even within a week following, that we shouldn’t believe women who say they were raped unless several male witnesses saw the rape, and that women shouldn’t braid their hair. The Church interprets all these things for our times and places. Considering the vast attention to detail She gives to married life throughout the Catechism, one would think that something so basic as wifely submission would be discussed…and yet She doesn’t. End of subject.