Piercings - out of line?

[AnnArbor]

What you say is true. The husband must use his authority for the benefit, particularly the spiritual benefit, of his family. Nevertheless, he does have authority and the wife sins if she disobeys him, unless his commands are genuinely harmful to herself or her children, or just beyond what he can reasonably expect from her. Just as the pope is there to serve us, and parents are there to serve their children, so the husband is the servant of his wife.
But nonetheless we must obey the pope, children must obey their parents, and wives must obey their husbands. The husband who goes against his wife’s wishes may sin against the love and respect he owes his wife, but the wife who disobeys her husband commits a sin of disobedience. The teaching of the Church is quite clear and it is absolutely undeniable that the husband is the head of the wife.

However, the wife is fully equal in authority to her husband – she does not promise to obey him in the marriage vows, and their submission must be mutual. Couples may certainly choose to structure their relationship in a way that one acts as the head, but that is up to both of them.

 

[EasterJoy]

What you say is true. The husband must use his authority for the benefit, particularly the spiritual benefit, of his family. Nevertheless, he does have authority and the wife sins if she disobeys him, unless his commands are genuinely harmful to herself or her children, or just beyond what he can reasonably expect from her. Just as the pope is there to serve us, and parents are there to serve their children, so the husband is the servant of his wife.
But nonetheless we must obey the pope, children must obey their parents, and wives must obey their husbands. The husband who goes against his wife’s wishes may sin against the love and respect he owes his wife, but the wife who disobeys her husband commits a sin of disobedience. The teaching of the Church is quite clear and it is absolutely undeniable that the husband is the head of the wife.

Husbands are to lead as Christ does the Church, and the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Let us look at how the authority of the Pope is wielded, then, in order to clarify the situation. The Pope does not issue commands about matters not having to do with faith and morals under the expectation that we will all obey “unless his commands are genuinely harmful to herself or her children,” nor does he expect that all of Christendom will be run so as to please his personal preferences. The Pope does not make ex cathedra pronouncements without ever consulting with the College of Cardinals. Neither do bishops act as tyrants with their brother priests who are pastors of parishes. Abbots of monasteries also avoid giving orders to the monks except as the duty of their office requires them to do.

In other words, even the Church herself is run under a model in which the higher authorities act in collegiality with those who have lesser absolute authority than they do. Is the husband the head of his domestic church? Yes, but his wife is the College of Cardinals of this domestic church. Like the Pope, the Servant of the Servants of God, a Christian husband is to lead his own church as the first among equals, not as the only one who has any authority to make any decisions. Their children, like the laity in the Church, were put on this earth to serve God, not to serve their leaders. Like the Pope, a husband has to answer for his leadership, and the warning that he is not to lead as those in the world do, lording it over those beneath them, but as a servant who pours himself out for the good of those he serves.

 

[recentrevert]

However, the wife is fully equal in authority to her husband – she does not promise to obey him in the marriage vows, and their submission must be mutual. Couples may certainly choose to structure their relationship in a way that one acts as the head, but that is up to both of them.

Read Pope Leo XIII’s 'Arcanum Divinae and Pope Pius XI’s Casti Connubii (paragraphs 26-29 in particular) if you wish to know the Church’s teaching on the structure of the family. The popes are here teaching the whole Church on a matter of faith and morals.

 

[recentrevert]

Are you married? Because in all the years I’ve been reading threads on CAF and the more recent years I’ve been participating in them, I’ve found that almost all of the men who are this obsessed with “wifely obedience” are single. Either that or they are trolling. The married men who actively contribute to these threads on the subject are not fixated on the topic nor do they display an unhealthy interest in micromanaging each detail of “marital roles”. Perhaps it’s the fact the happily married men actually have real life experience in what a Sacramental Marriage involves on a daily basis and that does not include expecting or demanding child-like obedience from someone they share the marital bed with and instead of constantly harping on obedience they encourage striving towards better communication and working together as a team.

So, if you are married, please share with us exactly how your wife obeys you on a daily basis and how you expect obedience from her on a daily basis. We all know what the verses in Ephesians say and most of us have read certain Encyclical verses that you like to post- so let’s hear how this plays out for you in everyday life with your wife.

The Bible, together with Sacred Tradition, is the source of Divine Revelation, so we really ought to take much notice of those verses in Ephesians. The Magisterium is the authentic interpreter of the two sources of Divine Revelation, so we really ought to listen when the pope teaches the Church on a matter of faith and morals. The Church clearly teaches that the husband has authority over the wife - that is simply how it is. If you wish to understand what this means in practice then I suggest you read both encyclicals in their entirety.

The husband is obviously not permitted to act as a despot, ordering his wife around as if she was a piece of property but she is nonetheless required to hear the voice of God in the decisions he makes. He has authority over her and in all reasonable matters he has the final say. He must respect her dignity, but she must respect his authority.

 

[LightBound]

The Bible, together with Sacred Tradition, is the source of Divine Revelation, so we really ought to take much notice of those verses in Ephesians. The Magisterium is the authentic interpreter of the two sources of Divine Revelation, so we really ought to listen when the pope teaches the Church on a matter of faith and morals. The Church clearly teaches that the husband has authority over the wife - that is simply how it is. If you wish to understand what this means in practice then I suggest you read both encyclicals in their entirety.

The husband is obviously not permitted to act as a despot, ordering his wife around as if she was a piece of property but she is nonetheless required to hear the voice of God in the decisions he makes. He has authority over her and in all reasonable matters he has the final say. He must respect her dignity, but she must respect his authority.

I will ask you again. Are you married and if so, please share an example of how your wife obeys you on a daily basis. I am well aware of what the Bible and encyclicals say on the matter- what I want to know how you and your spouse live it out on a daily basis. Surely you can share an example or two from your own marriage since you have such a strong interest in this topic.

 

[frangiuliano115]

jharek carnelian

After all these pages of posts, I like your idea the best!

Nothing will work, even biblically, unless BOTH husband and wife are practicing christians and followers of Christ, and they love and respect each other and each others opinions and desires in life issues.

Thanks Jharek, we needed that!

God bless all
Fran

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So I “discover” that my wife and three daughters had a “fun time together” and got themselves belly piercings…daughters are 12,13 and 15.

They knew I don’t like piercings other than the ear and this was the first time there are such anywhere else.

Don’t like 'em, think they are trashy, etc.

Do I have a right to be PO’d?

I am sorry that your own wife and children do not have values similar to yours. A twelve year old with a belly piercing is troublesome. Has this always been a difference in your family or are these new issues?

 

[EasterJoy]

jharek carnelian

After all these pages of posts, I like your idea the best!

Nothing will work, even biblically, unless BOTH husband and wife are practicing christians and followers of Christ, and they love and respect each other and each others opinions and desires in life issues.

Thanks Jharek, we needed that!

God bless all
Fran

It cannot logically be true that “nothing will work, even biblically, unless BOTH husband and wife are practicing Christians and followers of Christ…”

For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Cor. 7:14-16

Grace is at work in the life of a married believer, even one not married to another believer. Therefore, it is not true that “nothing will work.” Things work with greater difficulty, St. Paul is also clear about that, but it is not impossible and we should not imply that it is. That only makes it more difficult yet. Things are hard enough on someone whose spouse is either an unbeliever or who is going through a time when he or she is lukewarm or cold in faith without discouraging the believer from hoping that his or her marriage can “work.”

Just to clarify: I have no idea if this has a thing to do with the OP or his wife. They had a difference over whether he ought to have been consulted about what his wife allowed their girls to do. That doesn’t necessarily say anything about how devout his wife is to the Lord or her attitude towards the roles of men and women in marriage. Even on the piercings, she may have intended to allow the girls to have them without letting them “flaunt” something to their dad that she knew her husband wasn’t wild about seeing. She may have indulged her own desire to do what she wanted and regretted it later. She may have thought she had been given authority when it came to the girls’ attire, particularly when she was only allowing them to do what she was doing. We can’t know that.

Had I thought my husband had deliberately done something with our sons that I had specifically put my foot down about, I’d be livid. That is totally over the line. Still, I’d try to listen to his explanation of what he did and what he intended. Sometimes, the situation is a little more complicated than one thinks at first blush.

 

[Tbrightson]

I am sorry that your own wife and children do not have values similar to yours. A twelve year old with a belly piercing is troublesome. Has this always been a difference in your family or are these new issues?

I would say our values are more similar than dissimilar…but I am certainly more “strict”
about these things than the Mrs. I have been told more than once that I should have been a priest. The child apologized and the wife gave back the iphone. Of course I learned this after the fact. I said she was still grounded though. Told the wife an apology is said because it is the right thing to do, not to be used as a get out of jail card. Didn’t get an argument. Also told the kid to best not got to communion until after a confession.

 

[EasterJoy]

I would say our values are more similar than dissimilar…but I am certainly more “strict”
about these things than the Mrs. I have been told more than once that I should have been a priest. The child apologized and the wife gave back the iphone. Of course I learned this after the fact. I said she was still grounded though. Told the wife an apology is said because it is the right thing to do, not to be used as a get out of jail card. Didn’t get an argument. Also told the kid to best not got to communion until after a confession.

Perhaps you and your wife could agree that when a privilege is taken away, it takes a unanimous vote of parents to get it back. When one of you take a phone away, for instance, when you see your wife again the two of you can decide on what sort of “community service” will suffice to commute the sentence. In this way, you can both say, quite truthfully, “I’m sorry, but your dad/mom and I agreed that you cannot have your phone back until you have satisfied Condition X or Condition Y, one or the other. If you want it back without doing that, you have to convince both of us that your proposal is fair. I will not be convinced until I’m sure that your mom/dad is convinced, too. There is zero chance you are getting it back before he/she says so, too.” Since your wife does not like being the strict one, this is a way for both of you to be the “heavy” together.

Apologizing, by the way, ought to be required to get the phone back at all, even after the penalty time is up. If you aren’t sorry for failing to follow the rules, you are, in essence, refusing to sign the “Rules of Usage.” If you don’t agree to follow the rules for having a phone, you don’t get to have a phone. Therefore: no apology for breaking the rules, no return of phone.