Pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia

[eltoro89]

To be fair my friend, assuming she’s persistent in prayer, trusting God and is truthful then God will guide her to where she needs to be. He could take her out of this situation or use her for His glory in other ways; this is assuming her Faith is strong enough to do so.

If her Faith is not strong enough then I can understand her choice to keep silent and go with the flow until she feels comfortable, but that doesn’t mean it’s right and perfect. She wants advice on the Christian thing to do, and I’m providing that.

Death isn’t certain, but God’s will is perfect if she chooses to follow it even with the chance of persecution. I don’t think I’ve said anything wrong, but I do agree that I havn’t said anything comforting by this world’s standards.

How can we preclude, then, the possibility that keeping her head down MAY be part of the plan for her?

As someone heavily involved in the Desi community and Muslim community who has seen first hand the abuse and danger that things like this cause, and who was raised southern Baptist and has lived the last three years as a practicing Catholic awaiting confirmation and first communion, MY Christian response is the desire to keep this girl safe so that she may move forward in her life, grow in her spirituality and faith.

I mean no disrespect to your viewpoint, and I do understand them, but my advice still remains that if she keeps her mind and heart focused on Christ if she has to go to remain safe, then she is both honoring her God and keeping herself safe.

 

[dronald]

How can we preclude, then, the possibility that keeping her head down MAY be part of the plan for her?

As someone heavily involved in the Desi community and Muslim community who has seen first hand the abuse and danger that things like this cause, and who was raised southern Baptist and has lived the last three years as a practicing Catholic awaiting confirmation and first communion, MY Christian response is the desire to keep this girl safe so that she may move forward in her life, grow in her spirituality and faith.

I mean no disrespect to your viewpoint, and I do understand them, but my advice still remains that if she keeps her mind and heart focused on Christ if she has to go to remain safe, then she is both honoring her God and keeping herself safe.

“Keeping her head down” could hypothetically be the right course of action, but if it is out of fear of persecution then it’s not an excuse Biblically. I understand being respectful and quiet for the sake of being humble and loving, but one should never hide the truth of Christ out of fear of rejection even when fatal.

I can’t think of a scenario where it would be justified to deny your faith in Christ. Entering Mecca would be wrong on her part because only Muslims are allowed in; therefore when asked she must proclaim to be a Muslim. This would be a lie against her true Faith which is always wrong

Could she be forgiven? Oh my goodness yes. And she could go on to raise a family of Christians and do wonderful works for the Lord. But I will never advocate any kind of deceit, especially when it comes to what her true Faith is.

When asked to say the Shahada what in the world do you advocate she do?

 

[eltoro89]

"

When asked to say the Shahada what in the world do you advocate she do?

She probably already says the Shahada at some point, otherwise her parents would become suspicious. Saying the Shahada with no reverence doesn’t mean you believe it. Yes, it is a form of deceit, yes, it isn’t ideal, but if she has to choose between reciting the shahada or al fatihah or whatever and bodily harm and she still keeps Christ in her heart, does that make her any less of a Christian?

I know the shahada and about 30 other ayat and several suwar from memory from the Quran in Arabic. I learned them when I was learning Arabic and I often used the Qur’an to practice reading. Does reading the Qur’an aloud make me a Muslim? Does it make me any less proud or strong in Christian faith? Nope.

Let me be clear, under normal circumstances I would advocate true and total honesty, especially in matters of faith. These, however, are not ordinary circumstances and they carry with them ENORMOUS repercussions and I certainly don’t want to wake up a month from now to find out I sent a sister in faith to her death by my counsel.

 

[TRH1292]

To be fair my friend, assuming she’s persistent in prayer, trusting God and is truthful then God will guide her to where she needs to be. He could take her out of this situation or use her for His glory in other ways; this is assuming her Faith is strong enough to do so.

If her Faith is not strong enough then I can understand her choice to keep silent and go with the flow until she feels comfortable, but that doesn’t mean it’s right and perfect. She wants advice on the Christian thing to do, and I’m providing that.

Death isn’t certain, but God’s will is perfect if she chooses to follow it even with the chance of persecution. I don’t think I’ve said anything wrong, but I do agree that I havn’t said anything comforting by this world’s standards.

That is sick.

 

[dronald]

She probably already says the Shahada at some point, otherwise her parents would become suspicious. Saying the Shahada with no reverence doesn’t mean you believe it. Yes, it is a form of deceit, yes, it isn’t ideal, but if she has to choose between reciting the shahada or al fatihah or whatever and bodily harm and she still keeps Christ in her heart, does that make her any less of a Christian?

I know the shahada and about 30 other ayahs and several suwar from memory from the Quran in Arabic. I learned them when I was learning Arabic and I often used the Qur’an to practice reading. Does reading the Qur’an aloud make me a Muslim? Does it make me any less proud or strong in Christian faith? Nope.

You phrased your question well, “Does it make her any less of a Christian?”

No, it doesn’t. She’s a Christian, and a sinner like you and I. You also admitted that it’s not ideal, and I agree. In an ideal world we would all do what Christ commands.

I’m not saying she’s going to hell or she’s a bad person, or a bad Christian. For me to say those things would be awful and I hope that’s not how I’m coming across. (I don’t think I am) I’m only saying what is right; that’s it.

She should not recite the Shahada because it’s a lie, and you agree it’s not ideal. We can’t whitewash truth. If I was being told to recite the Shahada or be killed I’m not sure what I would do, but I’m not going to lie and say she should even though she knows it’s not right.

 

[dronald]

That is sick.

Which part?

 

[eltoro89]

You phrased your question well, “Does it make her any less of a Christian?”

No, it doesn’t. She’s a Christian, and a sinner like you and I. You also admitted that it’s not ideal, and I agree. In an ideal world we would all do what Christ commands.

I’m not saying she’s going to hell or she’s a bad person, or a bad Christian. For me to say those things would be awful and I hope that’s not how I’m coming across. (I don’t think I am) I’m only saying what is right; that’s it.

She should not recite the Shahada because it’s a lie, and you agree it’s not ideal. We can’t whitewash truth. If I was being told to recite the Shahada or be killed I’m not sure what I would do, but I’m not going to lie and say she should even though she knows it’s not right.

The shahada, without intent and faith in your heart, is just a collection of words. It only becomes a statement of belief if you believe it. I certainly do agree it’s not ideal, but I don’t advocate that it’s black and white and that you either betray your religion or you march to your death. I have read variations of the shahada many times in my studies. I’ve seen it written many times. I can write it in calligraphy. It does not mean that I believe it.

As I said, yes, one should not be deceitful, but the Lord knows what is in your heart and what your true intentions are. I’m not going to advocate sending her to her death so she can be a headline on CNN that makes people glance for two days until Justin Bieber does something stupid and it’s forgotten. I’m afraid I just can’t advocate that, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[TRH1292]

Which part?

The part where you, sitting in your comfortable little western world, tell a Catholic(when you aren’t even one), who might not even be 16 years old, opining about what it means for her to have strong and weak faith in your eyes. About what it would mean for her weak faith. That is absolutely pathetic. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Considering she has converted to Christianity in an incredibly pro-Muslim environment, I would be willing to bet her faith is plenty strong. I would place my money on her faith over yours any day.

You ought to be ashamed for saying something like that.

 

[dronald]

The shahada, without intent and faith in your heart, is just a collection of words. It only becomes a statement of belief if you believe it. I certainly do agree it’s not ideal, but I don’t advocate that it’s black and white and that you either betray your religion or you march to your death. I have read variations of the shahada many times in my studies. I’ve seen it written many times. I can write it in calligraphy. It does not mean that I believe it.

As I said, yes, one should not be deceitful, but the Lord knows what is in your heart and what your true intentions are. I’m not going to advocate sending her to her death so she can be a headline on CNN that makes people glance for two days until Justin Bieber does something stupid and it’s forgotten. I’m afraid I just can’t advocate that, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Hm… what do you mean by, “just a collection of words”? God is clear on the significance of the tongue, but I’m wondering what you mean exactly? Would denying Christ with your mouth but believing differently be “just a collection of words.”? Please explain what that means.

 

[dronald]

The part where you, sitting in your comfortable little western world, tell a Catholic(when you aren’t even one), who might not even be 16 years old, opining about what it means for her to have strong and weak faith in your eyes. About what it would mean for her weak faith. That is absolutely pathetic. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Considering she has converted to Christianity in an incredibly pro-Muslim environment, I would be willing to bet her faith is plenty strong. I would place my money on her faith over yours any day.

You ought to be ashamed for saying something like that.

So would you say what I’ve said is entirely unscriptual?

 

[eltoro89]

Hm… what do you mean by, “just a collection of words”? God is clear on the significance of the tongue, but I’m wondering what you mean exactly? Would denying Christ with your mouth but believing differently be “just a collection of words.”? Please explain what that means.

إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
There is no God but Allah and Allah is the messenger of God.

No part of the Shahada denies Christ. (Not that I’m saying everyone should say it, I’m just wondering where you got the Christ denial with the lips part)

I just wrote it, and read it. Does that make me a blasphemer? Why can I write it and say it and not believe it and it be okay? because everyone knows I’m not Muslim. I’m a white guy with Baptist parents. The only issue here is that a brown girl who is trying to avoid problems is going to say it and so people automatically assume it must mean something to her because she was formally Muslim. I can say laʾilaha illa-llah, muhammadun rasulu-llah all day long and it would mean absolutely nothing to me, just as I’m sure it means absolutely nothing to her.

If she has to say it with no conviction in order to avoid bodily harm when no one looks at westerners sideways for using it in a scholarly sense, then yeah. Plenty of scholars who focus on Arabic and Sharia law have said it, plenty of them use it. Many of them are devout Christians. No one bats an eye because it’s just words (Penguin publishes the Qur’an as a literary classic, not as a religious text). But you want me to hold her to a different standard when her life may depend on it? fraid not.

The shahada, without faith and intent, is nothing but written down FusHa Arabic. Again, I don’t think it’s ideal to be deceitful, but is it so grevious that it is better for one to place oneself in harm’s way? Not in my opinion, but I guess we’ll have to differ, as I’ve said before.

 

[dronald]

إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
There is no God but Allah and Allah is the messenger of God.

I read what you stated after and assume this is a typo, but for the sake of those who do not know the Shahada it’s “Muhammad is his messenger.”

No part of the Shahada denies Christ. (Not that I’m saying everyone should say it, I’m just wondering where you got the Christ denial with the lips part)

I just wrote it, and read it. Does that make me a blasphemer? Why can I write it and say it and not believe it and it be okay? because everyone knows I’m not Muslim. I’m a white guy with Baptist parents. The only issue here is that a brown girl who is trying to avoid problems is going to say it and so people automatically assume it must mean something to her because she was formally Muslim. I can say laʾilaha illa-llah, muhammadun rasulu-llah all day long and it would mean absolutely nothing to me, just as I’m sure it means absolutely nothing to her.

If she has to say it with no conviction in order to avoid bodily harm when no one looks at westerners sideways for using it in a scholarly sense, then yeah. Plenty of scholars who focus on Arabic and Sharia law have said it, plenty of them use it. Many of them are devout Christians. No one bats an eye because it’s just words (Penguin publishes the Qur’an as a literary classic, not as a religious text). But you want me to hold her to a different standard when her life may depend on it? fraid not.

I’m saying it’s a lie eltoro and completely contradicts her Faith. She’s being asked to admit it, not to explain what it is, or to repeat what someone else has once written, but to claim it as a truth to her.

I don’t believe that Catholics believe it is permissible to sacrifice to idols because we are being forced to, nor to accept Muhammad’s Theology. I respect you and am grateful for your respect of my opinion, but I can’t grasp your belief here and I don’t believe Catholics ought to believe it too.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I have an urgent Question to ask… and I need sincere suggestions please…

My family is Muslim, and I’m a convert from Muslim to a Christian, the problem is that none of my family members are aware of my conversion although, my mother does know but she thinks i may have converted back since i dont speak of Christ or pray in front of her, i do it when im alone and in peace…
Anyhow, this coming Thursday my family and i are going to Saudia Arabia , for a Holy pilgrimage for Musims to Makkah, where every Muslim are there to worship Allah, and bow down to the Black Stone.
I personally dont feel comfortable going there and being a part of this journey since I have embraced Christianity, I honestly believe that ill be betraying Christ, what should i do?
Although I know i waont be praying to the God of Muslims, but my heart doesn’t accept me even being a part in this whole travel…
Even if i tell my parents that i dont want to go, they would question me as to why, and revealing my conversion to Christianity isnt a good time, I would like if you please suggest me a way to handle this situation as to what should i do with the Pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia??

Your suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Thankyou

Nida

God Bless you for your faith!

I would suggest talking with a priest if you can see one on this.

 

[eltoro89]

I read what you stated after and assume this is a typo, but for the sake of those who do not know the Shahada it’s “Muhammad is his messenger.”

I’m saying it’s a lie eltoro and completely contradicts her Faith. She’s being asked to admit it, not to explain what it is, or to repeat what someone else has once written, but to claim it as a truth to her.

I don’t believe that Catholics believe it is permissible to sacrifice to idols because we are being forced to, nor to accept Muhammad’s Theology. I respect you and am grateful for your respect of my opinion, but I can’t grasp your belief here and I don’t believe Catholics ought to believe it too.

Yeah, my bad. I did mean to write Mohammed is the messenger of God. Sorry! I never disagreed that it was a lie, nor did I agree that it was permissible. It’s not permissible to do a lot of things, and yet many still do them for a lot of reasons whose validity falls short of “I could possibly die.”. I don’t condone sin, and in a perfect world, it would not be a factor.

The fact of the matter is, it may not be permissible, but I do not believe that it is so grievous that one must choose the possibility of death over it. My advice, and the advice of most Catholics, would be to keep herself safe, keep Christ in her heart through the process, and seek the absolution of a priest when it is safe to do so. If she keeps her faith in her heart and confesses what she has done (even if she cannot make it to the confessional and dies with the intent to confess) then I think that it might be the best course of action.

I apologize again for not advocating people to put themselves in harm’s way. I expect many priests would also be weary of sending someone out to be a potential martyr.

 

[Contarini]

I have an urgent Question to ask… and I need sincere suggestions please…

My family is Muslim, and I’m a convert from Muslim to a Christian, the problem is that none of my family members are aware of my conversion although, my mother does know but she thinks i may have converted back since i dont speak of Christ or pray in front of her, i do it when im alone and in peace…
Anyhow, this coming Thursday my family and i are going to Saudia Arabia , for a Holy pilgrimage for Musims to Makkah, where every Muslim are there to worship Allah, and bow down to the Black Stone.
I personally dont feel comfortable going there and being a part of this journey since I have embraced Christianity, I honestly believe that ill be betraying Christ, what should i do?
Although I know i waont be praying to the God of Muslims, but my heart doesn’t accept me even being a part in this whole travel…
Even if i tell my parents that i dont want to go, they would question me as to why, and revealing my conversion to Christianity isnt a good time, I would like if you please suggest me a way to handle this situation as to what should i do with the Pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia??

Your suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Thankyou

Nida

Nida,

The Catholic Church, at least, does not hold that there is one God of Muslims and another God of Christians. There is one God. Period. We Christians simply believe that this God has revealed Himself fully in Jesus, whereas Muslims think that Jesus is just a prophet.

However, that doesn’t mean that you should participate in this pilgrimage, I am not in your shows and cannot advise you rightly. You need counsel from a priest (or pastor, if you are Protestant, or some other experienced Christian whom you trust) whom you know personally and who understands your circumstances. Please don’t rely on folks in this forum–as you can see, we all have different ideas, although we all care about you and will hold you in your prayers. You are in an incredibly difficult situation and there is no easy way out.

If you told members of your family that you were a Christian, would your life be in danger? If so, is there any way you can get to safety? Is there something we can do to help you do this? You can’t go on living like this indefinitely.

God bless,

Edwin

 

[dronald]

Yeah, my bad. I did mean to write Mohammed is the messenger of God. Sorry! I never disagreed that it was a lie, nor did I agree that it was permissible. It’s not permissible to do a lot of things, and yet many still do them for a lot of reasons whose validity falls short of “I could possibly die.”. I don’t condone sin, and in a perfect world, it would not be a factor.

The fact of the matter is, it may not be permissible, but I do not believe that it is so grievous that one must choose the possibility of death over it. My advice, and the advice of most Catholics, would be to keep herself safe, keep Christ in her heart through the process, and seek the absolution of a priest when it is safe to do so. If she keeps her faith in her heart and confesses what she has done (even if she cannot make it to the confessional and dies with the intent to confess) then I think that it might be the best course of action.

I apologize again for not advocating people to put themselves in harm’s way. I expect many priests would also be weary of sending someone out to be a potential martyr.

You’re right about all this my friend, I agree. One could do as you state and seek forgiveness, I do it every night the sinner that I am. I’m simply stating what the right and absolute perfect thing to do would be. That’s all I’ve been trying to do.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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