Pine Sunday?

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I am in Dublin for Palm Sunday. I went to the Pro-Cathedral (the “temporary” Cathedral, until the Protestants give back the original cathedral, but that is another story) with the Bishop presiding. Instead of palm branches, we were given small pine branches. Given that the original Palm Sunday had people just pulling branches off nearby trees, which happen to be palm trees, there is a certain appropriateness in using pine branches in this colder climate. Anybody else see different greenery for Palm Sunday? Of course, it would be very difficult (impossible I think) to make crosses out of the pine.
 
We use both palm branches and pines. I’ve even known olive branches to be used.The palm branches are carried in and secured at the ends of pews. Pines aren’t native to my country, but usually someone has pines in their gardens.
 
Russians, Ukrainians, and other places in northern Europe use [fuzzy catkin] willows or other willows–because that’s what they have.
 
Are there any regulations as to what can be used on Palm Sunday?
 
Digitonomy said:
Are there any regulations as to what can be used on Palm Sunday?
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The Sacramentary only says “palm branches” but the custom of other branches (especially in colder climates) goes back to “time immemorial” and is continuous and has never been abrogated, so it enjoys the favor of the law.

I don’t know if this has ever been officially addressed though.

We use both palm branches and ***** willows (which night be another name for fuzzy catkin?).

PS–well, that was odd. The 5 stars was done by the system. Apparently my synonym for a cat could not be posted. The name of the plant is pussywillow.
 
Trishie said:
We use both palm branches and pines. I’ve even known olive branches to be used.The palm branches are carried in and secured at the ends of pews. Pines aren’t native to my country, but usually someone has pines in their gardens.
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I would think that the spirit of the practice of palm fronds would not be in keeping with using olive branches. Pine, perhaps, would be in keeping with the same idea of palm sunday… but never olive or oak.
 
promethius said:
I would think that the spirit of the practice of palm fronds would not be in keeping with using olive branches. Pine, perhaps, would be in keeping with the same idea of palm sunday… but never olive or oak.
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Here’s the antiphon for the entrance procession on Palm Sunday:

When the people heard that Jesus was entering Jerusalem
they went to meet him
and, waving olive branches,
they loudly praised the Lord
hosannah in the highest

Why not olive branches today? I don’t understand.

The original “Palm Sunday” happened near the Mount of Olives (and I don’t know my Jerusalem geography very well, but does that not mean that at the time, there were many olive trees there?) Would this not be the “leafy branches” from Mark 11? The name might have some other source (like skulls don’t grow on Golgatha) but I honestly don’t understand why olive branches wouldn’t be acceptable.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Here’s the antiphon for the entrance procession on Palm Sunday:

When the people heard that Jesus was entering Jerusalem
they went to meet him
and, waving olive branches,
they loudly praised the Lord
hosannah in the highest

Why not olive branches today? I don’t understand.

The original “Palm Sunday” happened near the Mount of Olives (and I don’t know my Jerusalem geography very well, but does that not mean that at the time, there were many olive trees there?) Would this not be the “leafy branches” from Mark 11? The name might have some other source (like skulls don’t grow on Golgatha) but I honestly don’t understand why olive branches wouldn’t be acceptable.
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Greetings, Fr David. I was under the impression that the palm fronds held different significance. The fronds would have been used in the muddy or dusty bedrock roads to be laid down when a particularly important visitor came to the city (open sandals being poor repellants of dirt), thus protecting them from the dirt and grime of the road. The significance being that they would lay a soft bed for someone to trod on. Ergo, palms are significant because they’re a sign of Christ’s superiority… His position as king of the Jews. As an avid camper, I can tell you that pine boughs also make excellent barriers between a person and the ground.

Looking at this picture from national geographic:
ngsprints.co.uk/m147/Joe-Scherschel/p109330/Art-print:-Close-view-of-olive-tree-branches./product_info.html
I guess i can see how olive branches COULD possibly be used for the same thing, but not as easily. The large branches just aren’t the right shape for laying accross a road, and that would mean LARGE bulk of the smaller branches. Generally, given the historical symbolism of olive branches, I don’t think they would have been used for that purpose.

🙂 although I could be wrong about the practice that started palm sunday and the significance being derived from the involvement of the plants.
 
promethius said:
Greetings, Fr David. I was under the impression that the palm fronds held different significance. The fronds would have been used in the muddy or dusty bedrock roads to be laid down when a particularly important visitor came to the city (open sandals being poor repellants of dirt), thus protecting them from the dirt and grime of the road. The significance being that they would lay a soft bed for someone to trod on. Ergo, palms are significant because they’re a sign of Christ’s superiority… His position as king of the Jews. As an avid camper, I can tell you that pine boughs also make excellent barriers between a person and the ground.

Looking at this picture from national geographic:
ngsprints.co.uk/m147/Joe-Scherschel/p109330/Art-print:-Close-view-of-olive-tree-branches./product_info.html
I guess i can see how olive branches COULD possibly be used for the same thing, but not as easily. The large branches just aren’t the right shape for laying accross a road, and that would mean LARGE bulk of the smaller branches. Generally, given the historical symbolism of olive branches, I don’t think they would have been used for that purpose.

🙂 although I could be wrong about the practice that started palm sunday and the significance being derived from the involvement of the plants.
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I hear what you’re saying, but Matthew’s Gospel does say “leafy branches” and the liturgical text says “olive branches.” I only read 'em, I don’t write 'em.

Don’t just think in terms of “paving” the road, but think also of people throwing flowers at a parade. They do nothing to make the road better, but they’re thrown out as a way of honoring the procession. Likewise for the olive branches? Given their historic symbolism, can we not look at them in a similar way as flowers?
 
Palms aren’t always easy to come by here in Australia, so we tend to use other branches that are more available.
 
promethius said:
Greetings, Fr David. I was under the impression that the palm fronds held different significance. The fronds would have been used in the muddy or dusty bedrock roads to be laid down when a particularly important visitor came to the city (open sandals being poor repellants of dirt), thus protecting them from the dirt and grime of the road. The significance being that they would lay a soft bed for someone to trod on. Ergo, palms are significant because they’re a sign of Christ’s superiority… His position as king of the Jews. As an avid camper, I can tell you that pine boughs also make excellent barriers between a person and the ground.

Looking at this picture from national geographic:
ngsprints.co.uk/m147/Joe-Scherschel/p109330/Art-print:-Close-view-of-olive-tree-branches./product_info.html
I guess i can see how olive branches COULD possibly be used for the same thing, but not as easily. The large branches just aren’t the right shape for laying accross a road, and that would mean LARGE bulk of the smaller branches. Generally, given the historical symbolism of olive branches, I don’t think they would have been used for that purpose.

🙂 although I could be wrong about the practice that started palm sunday and the significance being derived from the involvement of the plants.
Click to expand...
Aah…

Here’s the text again:
they went to meet him
and, waving olive branches,
they loudly praised the Lord

They “waved” the olive branches. They might have thrown (only) the palms on the road, but the olive branches they waved?
 
FrDavid96 said:
Aah…

Here’s the text again:
they went to meet him
and, waving olive branches,
they loudly praised the Lord

They “waved” the olive branches. They might have thrown (only) the palms on the road, but the olive branches they waved?
Click to expand...
That would make sense… Especially since some olive trees have thorns (not familiar with olive trees grown in Israel though). Palms would form a barrier layer between dust, mud, animal droppings, and the like, while olive trees could conceivably worsen the road condition.

At the same time, I had forgotten about the olive branches being waved about… so my guess is that there’s a significant connection there as well (olive branches being a symbol of peace and reconciliation). 🙂 Bottom line: the church doesn’t forbid the use of any of the plants mentioned here, so I guess I’m being a bit of a stickler for historical meaning… and both definitely have context. I guess I should start looking at palm sunday as both a celebration of Christ as King AND a ceremony for peace and reconciliation.

Pax Christi to you, Fr David!
 
FrDavid96 said:
Aah…

Here’s the text again:
they went to meet him
and, waving olive branches,
they loudly praised the Lord

They “waved” the olive branches. They might have thrown (only) the palms on the road, but the olive branches they waved?
Click to expand...
I think that they were not concerned at the time with liturgical niceties. I think that if people were breaking off and waving branches, many people were just going to grab what was handy, and do what seemed fun at the time. Wave them, throw them on the road, hit the little brother, tickle the baby, the parents grab that branch away, get another. Remember these were the people the Pharisees reproved for being too noisy.
If there were olive trees close by, I can believe they waved, and threw, olive branches.
 
FrDavid96 said:
The Sacramentary only says “palm branches” but the custom of other branches (especially in colder climates) goes back to “time immemorial” and is continuous and has never been abrogated, so it enjoys the favor of the law.

I don’t know if this has ever been officially addressed though.

We use both palm branches and ***** willows (which night be another name for fuzzy catkin?).

PS–well, that was odd. The 5 stars was done by the system. Apparently my synonym for a cat could not be posted. The name of the plant is pussywillow.
Click to expand...
Ruthenian Church tradition is pussywillows and palms, when both are available, or any flowering branches when not. And it’s called Flowery Sunday in the liturgikon.
 
For those that know about these practices, are these other kinds of branches blessed, as we normally do the palms? Do people take them home from church, and leave them adorning holy pictures, or other places in the home? (I thought I would take the pine branches home with me, as I normally do the palm branches I get on Palm Sunday, but they fell apart in just a couple of days.) Are they burned to make the ashes for Ash Wednesday?
 
Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches don’t do ashes, and when they do, it’s Ash Monday… Byzantines don’t do ashes. The start of Lent is a monday, no ashes.

The pussywillows are blessed with the palms; one of the saturday prep projects is to take rubber bands and bind a palm leaf to a pussywillow; they are blessed together at the start of liturgy.
 
RSD said:
For those that know about these practices, are these other kinds of branches blessed, as we normally do the palms? Do people take them home from church, and leave them adorning holy pictures, or other places in the home? (I thought I would take the pine branches home with me, as I normally do the palm branches I get on Palm Sunday, but they fell apart in just a couple of days.) Are they burned to make the ashes for Ash Wednesday?
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Sure. They take them home and have all sorts of pious practices. But they’re not burned with the palms next year for Ash Wednesday–only palms are used here.
 
Hi RSD
Over here in the mighty West of the Great South Land or sometimes called the Land of The Holy Spirit we use both Palm and olive branches. Thanks for your sharing and opening up the world to this wonderful custom. It is great to experience the different variations of the customs of our church and not be caught up in it must be this or that way. May God bless Cheers geoff
 
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