Piper v. Wright: Justification

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I just read (it may be old news by now) that John Piper has a book soon coming which is a “response” to N.T. Wright’s discourse on Justification. HMMMM? This is such an interesting development to me as these two seem to be primary favorites in the Evangelical circles as of late!

I am not an expert on either’s soteriology, but I have read both men’s work on occasion and would suspect that Piper’s published response may be an attempt to “out” Wright as a virtual Catholic in Protestant clothes. I just don’t see much difference in Wright’s view of justification than that of Catholic theologians.

Does anyone have the inside scoop?
 
I have read a little bit on this topic. Here is how “New Perspective” is defined at ThePaulPage.com :

“At its core is the recognition that Judaism is not a religion of self-righteousness whereby humankind seeks to merit salvation before God. Paul’s argument with the Judaizers was not about Christian grace versus Jewish legalism. His argument was rather about the status of Gentiles in the church. Paul’s doctrine of justification, therefore, had far more to do with Jewish-Gentile issues than with questions of the individual’s status before God.”

The New Perspective is a Protestant re-interpretation of Paul that began with James D.G. Dunn, N. T. Wright and E. P. Sanders in the early 1980s.

Three MP3 talks I found and uploaded:

N.T. (Tom) Wright and James D.G. (Jimmy) Dunn on New Perspective on Paul (MP3)
Interview with N.T. Wright on Issues, Etc (MP3)
Critique from Phil Johnson of John MacArthur’s very anti-Catholic “Grace to You” group (MP3)

I’m going to listen to these again, I think they are from last year (2006) or the last few years or so.

Phil P
 
Thanks, Phil! I will listen attentively to these MP3’s. . .In the meantime, what is your take (if you even have one, that is) on the tension between strict Reformed theology on justification (via Piper) versus this “New Perspective” as seen in the writings of Wright, etc.? Does the “New Perspective” really refute the pure legalistic premise typical of Reformed justification or is it a kinder, gentler form of imputation?
 
<< Does the “New Perspective” really refute the pure legalistic premise typical of Reformed justification or is it a kinder, gentler form of imputation? >>

I dunno, its a little over my head, but Wright claims he is not dealing with theology but exegesis of Paul in his “New Perspective.” He answers most of these questions I think in the “Issues, Etc” interview. Kim Riddlebarger of “White Horse Inn” then critiques Wright’s view.

Phil P
 
JaneFrances said:
I just read (it may be old news by now) that John Piper has a book soon coming which is a “response” to N.T. Wright’s discourse on Justification. HMMMM? This is such an interesting development to me as these two seem to be primary favorites in the Evangelical circles as of late!

I am not an expert on either’s soteriology, but I have read both men’s work on occasion and would suspect that Piper’s published response may be an attempt to “out” Wright as a virtual Catholic in Protestant clothes. I just don’t see much difference in Wright’s view of justification than that of Catholic theologians.

Does anyone have the inside scoop?
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Piper is dead on - What a godly and grace-filled man he is. My prayer is that he might open the eyes of many.
 
Linkowski said:
Piper is dead on - What a godly and grace-filled man he is. My prayer is that he might open the eyes of many.
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Great. . .dead on about what exactly? I’m trying to discern what he might be “responding to” in his new book responding to Wright’s teaching on justification. Can you help?
 
JaneFrances said:
Great. . .dead on about what exactly? I’m trying to discern what he might be “responding to” in his new book responding to Wright’s teaching on justification. Can you help?
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I cannot say - BUT - I have been listening to Piper’s series on the book of Romans for the last few months and I am very familiar with what he preaches from scripture. I am not familiar with who “Wright” is.
 
Linkowski said:
I cannot say - BUT - I have been listening to Piper’s series on the book of Romans for the last few months and I am very familiar with what he preaches from scripture. I am not familiar with who “Wright” is.
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Okay. . .thanks for your insight. I agree, even as a Catholic, that John Piper has many good things to say, even as as a Calvinist. I especially liked his piece on the indissolubility of marriage from a New Testament perspective. . .His understanding of the sacrament of marriage is great (even if he doesn’t use the word “sacrament”). 😉

The thrust of this thread is to determine the specific parts of N.T. Wright’s view of justification which might prove distasteful enough to Piper to prompt him to publish a response.

Any informed Reformeds out there care to help?
 
crisco said:
You might want to look at these:

thepaulpage.com/McClure.html

thepaulpage.com/Debate.html

interesting stuff.
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Hey, that is interesting stuff! Thanks for the heads up! It really crystallizes for me the “big difference” in the traditional Reformed idea of justification versus the New Perspective. I think, especially in the second piece, that the Catholic view may be skewed a bit, but I suspect there are some Reformed who would claim the same about the representation of their faith.

Anyway. . .thanks.
 
JaneFrances said:
I just read (it may be old news by now) that John Piper has a book soon coming which is a “response” to N.T. Wright’s discourse on Justification. HMMMM? This is such an interesting development to me as these two seem to be primary favorites in the Evangelical circles as of late!

I am not an expert on either’s soteriology, but I have read both men’s work on occasion and would suspect that Piper’s published response may be an attempt to “out” Wright as a virtual Catholic in Protestant clothes. I just don’t see much difference in Wright’s view of justification than that of Catholic theologians.

Does anyone have the inside scoop?
Click to expand...
Really not all that familiar with Wright, except just in passing, but I listen to John Piper just about every day and have found him to be great preacher and right on the money, Biblically speaking.

I like the “John Piper is baaaaaaddddd” thing they play on Way of the Master. That’s pretty funny.
 
as for Wright - he’s the Anglican Bishop of Durham, and a well-respected Biblical scholar.
 
PhilVaz said:
For the record, I find John Piper extremely BORING compared to N.T. Wright. And I’ve listened to both. Here is a two-part lecture from Piper.

Piper on Justification 1
Piper on Justification 2

I guess I just find typical Reformed fundamentalist preaching boring. :confused: But plenty of sermons here I haven’t listened to yet, in case you are interested in hearing Piper.

Phil P
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I praise God for Piper…how passionate! I am not sure what you have listened to of his but I listen to him every day twice a day.
 
PhilVaz said:
For the record, I find John Piper extremely BORING compared to N.T. Wright. And I’ve listened to both. Here is a two-part lecture from Piper.

Piper on Justification 1
Piper on Justification 2

I guess I just find typical Reformed fundamentalist preaching boring. :confused: But plenty of sermons here I haven’t listened to yet, in case you are interested in hearing Piper.

Phil P
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Thanks again, Phil for the links. While, as I said in the beginning, I am familiar with some of Piper’s writing, I haven’t heard him speak. But I think I would agree with your assessment even on the basis of my reading of the two. Of course, it may have to do with the fact that Tom Wright is more palatable to my Catholic sensibilities and Piper seems more of an apt voice for the typical Reformed doctrine. In any case, I am intrigued that it seems some of the Reformed camp (albeit, not all by any means!!!) are embracing or at least are hospitable to Wright despite his apparent differences from their tradition.
 
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