Pius XII makes bad news again

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Hey everyone,
A new subject about Pius has reared its head again and I came across two websites that go over it. The sunject matter concerns the story that Pius did not allow some originally Jewish children to return to their parents after the fall of the nazis. Here are the stories:

Pius XII barred Jewish children returning home
By Peter Popham in Rome

29 December 2004

The bitter, long-running controversy over the attitude of Pope Pius XII to the Holocaust has taken a new turn with the publication of diaries that prove he opposed the return of Jewish children to their parents after the Nazis’ defeat.

The diaries were kept by Angelo Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, from 1945 to 1948 when Pius XII was on the Vatican throne and Cardinal Roncalli was papal nuncio to Paris.

The diaries document the efforts by Cardinal Roncalli to reunite Jewish families torn apart by the war and whose children had been taken under the wing of the Catholic Church. The future pope’s role in helping Jews escape from Nazi persecution has long been acknowledged. But the diaries show Pius XII was hostile to such efforts.

In 1946, Rabbi Herzog of Istanbul came to see Roncalli in Paris to ask that Jewish children rescued during the war and taken care of in Catholic convents should be returned to the Jewish community. Cardinal Roncalli was happy to oblige: he wrote authorising him “to use his authority with the relevant institutions, so … these children may be returned to their original environment.”

But Pius XII, who has frequently been accused of anti-semitism, sent a message via the Vatican’s Holy Office ordering that Jewish children who had been baptised as Christians after being separated from their parents should not be returned unless they could be guaranteed a Christian upbringing. Children “who no longer have parents” were not to be handed over. If the parents eventually showed up, only those children who had not been baptised should be restored, the Pope proclaimed.

Alberto Melloni, an authority on Cardinal Roncalli, said in Corriere della Sera newspaper, that the future pope often managed to defy the orders, though his diaries do not give details. Mr Melloni believes that this was one of the things that induced Roncalli, when he became Pope in 1960, to include a repudiation of anti-semitism in the agenda of the Second Vatican Council.

news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=596610

Same story here too:
guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1380532,00.html

As well here is one comment from a linked website:
Pope Pius XII’s real name was Eugenio Pacelli, and prior to becoming Pope he was the Papal Nuncio to Germany, where he helped bring about the fall of the Weimer Republic and the installation of Hitler, in exchange for Hitler’s promise to make Catholocism the official state religion of Nazi Germany. In his acceptance speech, Hitler described Christianity as, “essential elements for safeguarding the soul of the German people.” Hitler, knowing who helped him to power, then stated, “We hope to improve our friendly relations with the Holy See.” Just four months later, Hitler’s government signed a concordat with the Vatican, a treaty that gave preferential legal status to the Catholic church above other churches. As Pope Pius XII, Pacelli continued the same deal with the Spanish Dictator Franco. When Franco finally established his dictatorship in Spain, Church property and all medieval privileges of the Church were restored. No other religion was allowed. Protestants and non-Catholics were sent to concentration camps for refusing to attend Catholic services. Freethinkers, democrats, Socialists and Communists were deprived of civil rights, imprisoned, or shot. When the Spanish republic was finally defeated by Catholic troops under Franco, would-be dictator of Spain, the pope sent a special message to the victors: “With great joy we address you, dearest sons of Catholic Spain, to express our paternal congratulations for the gift of peace and victory with which God has chosen to crown the Christian heroism of your faith … We give you, our dear sons of Catholic Spain, our apostolic benediction.” Spain supported both Hitler and Mussolini during the World War 2. Under Pius XII, the bishops of Germany stayed loyal to the Nazis until the very end of the war.

I’ve read through some of the articles at Catholic answers, but the Jewish children issue has just come up. As well I’m just womdering about all the details in the above comment. If the above two stories are true, then we’d be in quite a pickle to explain this one against Pius XII.
 
It like that old line “your Honor, I never met her, and besides, she swore she was eighteen”.

If Pius XII was not sympathetic to returning Jewish orphans in Catholic care to the Jewish community, it seems you can’t say no Jews were recused by the Church. How did these orphans get there inthe first place?
 
Well the problem isn’t to do with taking care of the children or not. I’m rather concerned about the ethical picture of a husband and wife finally being released from a concentration camp, and when in search of their children, discover them in the care of the church. Obviously they’d be grateful to the Church for looking after them, but what if they discover that their own children cannot be returned to them because they were now baptized and catholics. It is understanding that since the child was now catholic, that they ought to be raised in a home promoting Christian values, but if you were a Jewish parent, how would you feel? It seems quite terrible.

If you were a Catholic under persecution, seperated from your Children, a hindu family then finds your children and raises them. When the persecution is over, you go to find your children whom you’ve missed for possibly years, only to find they’ve converted to another religion, but aside form that you discover that your children can no longer be with you because they can only now be raised in a home promoting Hindu values.

This does seem quite painful although in a bigger sense it would make sense for the child’s benefit (presuming they freely chose to be baptized). This news is just out and I’m simply wondering if it is just a dishonest revisionism of what the Pope actually ordered, or if it were true, then it does place him in a negative light to many people. Perhaps the decision of the pope left the decision to return to ones parents up to the child assuming they were old enough and the media is just presenting it in a distorted way. What he might have actually meant was to say that if the child decided to remain with their adoptive Catholic family, then the child has that right. Of course if what the media are reporting is all true then it could simply be another blemish in the list of things that did go wrong with some popes and nothing that will do anything to the Church teachings or faith. However this does look bad for Pope Pius’ reputation, and might perhaps add animosity between Jews and Catholics.
 
OK! Now surely here there must be some grounds for a suit!

:rolleyes:

Anna
 
THE RELIGIOUS WAR IN GERMANY

It is a sad commentary on the class struggle in Germany that while no news about the workers struggle penetrates into the capitalist press, yet the columns are filled with a bitter war on religion that is going on within Germany. Here is ample indication how the workers’ organizations have been crushed, how little the proletariat can articulate its needs. The church has been the traditional haven for the refugee. The very fact that the class struggle has to take on a religious guise and be a fight primarily among sections of the petty bourgeois church goers show how far underground the class struggle has been driven. On the other hand the religious question covers up in fact the struggle over deeper material interests, economic and political.

The religious question in Germany is being fought out on four fronts: Namely, the Jewish, the Catholic, the Independent Protestant, the Neo-Pagan. For the Nazi it is a question of insuring complete nationalism preparatory to their struggle against Communism. For centuries Germany has been the battle ground on which the various religious schools have fought themselves out. Already in the 16th century in England, and even before in France and Italy, the politicals knew how to use the church for their own purposes. In Germany, however, where material backwardness coincided with dearth of understanding of the real material forces governing the world. Everything has always stood on its head theoretically, and in the stuffy attic of religious metaphysics, the German philistine worked out eternal truths entirely devoid of practicality. Realistic thinkers were too often found only among the Jews.

In its struggle to identify nationality with religion and vice versa, Germany is only trying to do what England and France did centuries ago. Even so, the job is harder.

The Catholic Menace

The struggle against the Catholic Church is in the first place a struggle of industrial capital of North Germany against the agrarian junkers especially of the South. It is thus a struggle on the one hand of city against country and on the other hand of industrialist supporter of Hitler against the old style Kaiser type Junker and capitalist. In this respect it is only another aspect of the general fight that was waged between Hitler and Hugenberg, between Storm Troops and Stahlhelm, between the old federal regime and the new centralized one.

The Catholics with their ultra montane sympathies, with their recollections of the “Old Holy Roman Empire” were closely bound up with the politics of other countries, especially Austria and Italy and were committed too much to provincial federalism with its semi-independent Bavaria and other Kingdoms to be of much service today. In smashing the Catholics, German Fascism puts an end forever to the subordination of German policy to any foreign clique and sets out on its own. The smashing of the provincial Catholic apparatus gives room for many state jobs to good Nazi henchmen. At the same time, Bavaria is made into a mere administrative and police district and the whole country is entirely centralized by Berlin. Thus does Hitler complete the job of Frederick the Great and if now Austria is to enter this scheme of things it is only as a vassal with no friendly forces capable of sympathizing with her special aims from within.

The attack on the Catholics also helps straighten out the Western front, the important Ruhr region so close to Catholic France. A completely inimical regime is now set up and any sympathy for French culture and religion is blasted away. The Ruhr is made more safe for Berlin. No longer will the French be able to play at dreams in which the Ruhr is to be carved away from Germany and set up as a buffer state. The Nazis cannot tolerate any apparatus that can be dual to theirs in control of the State. The Catholics are too numerous in Germany (about one-third of the population) and have been too well organized for them not to have menaced the monolithic national unity which has become the Nazis aim. They have not been patriotic enough, also, to understand that all German gold is to be kept in Germany for use by the German state, and is not to be shipped to another country via the Pope. In aiding the drain of gold from Germany, the Catholics here tended to rival the Jews in their disintegrating tendencies from Fascism’s point of view. Under the Concordat of 1933, the Catholics have been bound to obey the exchange laws of Germany and very rigid has been the enforcement of these laws and drastic the punishment wherever Catholics, especially priests and nuns have been involved. The Catholic organizations have too much wealth not to be tempting prizes for the robber bands of Hitler and now that the wealth of the workers’ organizations has been distributed and dissipated by the gang, the rich Catholic organizations are the prizes next in order, it seems.
 
(cont)

The attack on the Catholic church in Germany would seem also to go along with the general separation from the middle class that Hitler has affected ever since he “purged” the Nazi ranks from “extremists” not so long ago. The adherents of the Catholic church were in the main middle class elements, who had always been resentful of the great trusts and industrialists and, who had to a certain extent, believed that Hitler would take over these trusts and run them for all the people. Among the Catholic middle class the disillusionment with Hitler had gone further than among other sections.

It must not be forgotten, also, that the Catholic church had been the sponsor of the Catholic Centrist Party, which had been in power so long during the Second Reich of the Weimar Republic. It was this party that had coerced with the socialists and trade union forces to run the capitalist government. Catholic centrist liberalism had proved too conciliatory to Marxism. Catholic pacifism and “turn the other cheek” stuff had often been invoked to calm the people and prevent them from bursting forth against the Versailles Treaty and oppressors at home. In the Catholic unions, which the church had formed among the workers, the ideal had been set of a socialism, which should come about through complete harmony and peacefulness of all classes and charity for all. Now Catholic internationalism and pacifism and christian unionism is no longer needed by the bourgeoisie of Germany. The German bourgeoisie is preparing for the most frightful blood bath in history. All elements must be steeled to force the violence and national hatred for all other groups. The Catholic Church finds itself completely out of place in Nazi Germany.

However, the job of uprooting the Catholic influence now centuries old, from amongst the mass of people, is no small task. The Totalitarian German State in attempting to guide the subjects of New Germany in every walk of life has been compelled to take cognizance of the powerful entrenchment of the Catholic Church in social life. As in Italy, a struggle between Fascism and Catholicism must take place on questions of education and morality and especially must there be a fight over such institutions as the confessional, the control over the youth and the special Catholic organizations.

Fascism, understanding very well the power the priest wields through the institution of the church and all the latent treachery to the state this institution involves, has decided to smash it once and for all. Confessional organizations are no longer allowed to criticize or oppose government measures or introduce disunity in the Third Reich. All activities except strictly religious ones are sternly forbidden to the confessional societies. Dr. Frick, Nazi Minister of the Interior, has been especially opposed to all Catholic newspapers, Catholic civil servants leagues, Catholic youth, apprentice, labor or educational organizations. Thus has Fascism attempted to reach the most backward elements most influenced by the confessional and bring them closer to the State. The youth have been torn from the jealous hands of the clergy. Education has become the complete monopoly of the State. The charitable organizations have been restricted and liquidated. The church is confined to abstract dogma – dogma on which it can only choke to death. Against the morality of the Catholic Church the Nazis are setting up their own morality and especially is the fight severe on such questions as sterilization, involving the immortality of the soul. Always, the Catholic Church has opposed all forms of sterilization. Now under the Concordat of 1933, the Catholics are bound to obey the laws on sterilization. In 1934 alone, there were 200,000 cases of sterilization reported in Germany. And, when we keep in mind that causes sufficient to bring on compulsory sterilization are not only such matters as congenital feeble mindedness, but also such social distractions as “chronic alcoholism” and “melancholomania” (extreme case of the “blues”), which may be brought on by environmental influences, then we can understand how this has become a mighty weapon by which the state is attempting to terrorize the population and wipe out its own enemies.
 
The two posts above are a commentary from a Communist Party periodical in 1936. I think it is interesting because it gives the views of things in Nazi Germany from a source unsympathetic to the Catholic Church.
 
This is not the first time the Church as dealt with such a problem. Is there not some case in the 20th century where a child of Jewish parents was baptized and not returned to his parents and I think the child became a priest? I believe it was in Italy.
 
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fix:
This is not the first time the Church as dealt with such a problem. Is there not some case in the 20th century where a child of Jewish parents was baptized and not returned to his parents and I think the child became a priest? I believe it was in Italy.
I don’t know about that one. I do know that JPII when he was a priest, refused to Baptize a child of Jewish parentage who was being hidden by a Catholic Couple. He said “NO”, not without the actually parents agreement. The parents returned after the war and were very grateful to JPII for honoring their faith and not allowing their son to be protholitized.
 
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Marie:
I don’t know about that one. I do know that JPII when he was a priest, refused to Baptize a child of Jewish parentage who was being hidden by a Catholic Couple. He said “NO”, not without the actually parents agreement. The parents returned after the war and were very grateful to JPII for honoring their faith and not allowing their son to be protholitized.
God bless our Holy Father.
 
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katherine2:
The two posts above are a commentary from a Communist Party periodical in 1936. I think it is interesting because it gives the views of things in Nazi Germany from a source unsympathetic to the Catholic Church.
Those old communists were astute observers–it’s their “solution” that was lacking. I think this lays to rest the notion that somehow Nazism was a “Christian” movement. To Hitler, church was for old women and small children, and like the communists they would not countenance any contrary notions of morality and obedience.
 
Hi all!

Yes, this story made the English-language papers here in Israel:
Pius XII told churches not to return

Holocaust war babies

By Amiram Barkat
The Vatican instructed the Catholic church in France not to return Jewish children to their families after the Holocaust, according to a letter dated November 20, 1946, that was published Tuesday in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera.
The children had been placed in the church’s care to save them from Nazi murder, but after the war the church was instructed to return them to surviving parents only if they had not been baptized.
The letter containing these instructions was sent by the Holy Office to Angelo Roncalli - later Pope John XXIII - who was then the papal representative in Paris.
“Please note that this decision has been approved by the Holy Father,” the letter emphasizes, referring to Pope Pius XII.
The letter reveals how the controversial wartime pope sought to restrict the number of children the church returned to their families by, among other things, instructing that baptized children “may not be entrusted to institutions that are not in a position to guarantee them a Christian upbringing.”
As for orphans who had not been baptized, the church must not hand them over to any “persons who have no rights over them”.
Roncalli had a reputation when previously serving as the Holy See’s envoy to Istanbul for favoring Jews.
In Paris he helped many Jews escape to Israel, and disobeyed the Vatican instructions by helping to return Jewish minors to their families.
On July 19, 1946, he sent a letter to the chief rabbi in Israel, Isaac Herzog (father of Israeli president Haim Herzog), in which he gives him permission “to use his [Roncalli’s] authority so these children can return to their original environment.”
Amos Luzzato, president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities, said in response yesterday: “The documents indicate that the Vatican completely ignored the Holocaust and murder of Jews. There is a sticking to theological arguments as though this were an ordinary situation, when in practice these children were not entrusted to churches to convert to Christianity but to save them from murder.”
The publication of the letter to Roncalli will only add to the controversy surrounding Pope Pius XII, making it difficult for the Vatican to ignore accusations that the Vatican under his tenure did not do enough to combat Nazi persecution of Jews, and even helped Nazi war criminals to evade justice.
The latest revelations are also likely to hamper efforts by Pope John Paul II to lay the groundwork for beatifying Pius XII.

Link: haaretz.com/hasen/spages/520870.html
fix, I believe that you’re referring to the infamous Mortara affair; see tinyurl.com/42bhv.
But most critics focused on the taking of Edgardo Mortara by papal guards in 1858. Church officials ordered the boy removed from his Jewish family in Bologna after hearing he had been secretly baptized by a Catholic housemaid. Despite an international campaign, Pius IX refused to return him to his family. Mortara later became a priest.
Amos Luzzatto, president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities, called it “the biggest wound that remains in the Italian Jewish world.”
Descendants of Mortara called Pius’ beatification “a reopening of a wound.”
“We always thought that this ordeal was in the past,” said Elena Mortara, Edgardo’s great-great niece, surrounded by the Mortara family. “We are sorry that it has become a scandal of the present.”

Link: tinyurl.com/6dd4t
See also tinyurl.com/6elh7 for an interview with David Kertzer, the author of The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (tinyurl.com/5ec7r).

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

Yes, this story made the English-language papers here in Israel:

fix, I believe that you’re referring to the infamous Mortara affair; see tinyurl.com/42bhv.

See also tinyurl.com/6elh7 for an interview with David Kertzer, the author of The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (tinyurl.com/5ec7r).

Be well!

ssv 👋
Just another attempt to discredit Pius XII, Roncalli I don’t think disobeyed the Pope, he know better than that.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
 
On July 19, 1946, he sent a letter to the chief rabbi in Israel, Isaac Herzog (father of Israeli president Haim Herzog), in which he gives him permission “to use his [Roncalli’s] authority so these children can return to their original environment.”
Amos Luzzato, president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities, said in response yesterday: “The documents indicate that the Vatican completely ignored the Holocaust and murder of Jews. There is a sticking to theological arguments as though this were an ordinary situation, when in practice these children were not entrusted to churches to convert to Christianity but to save them from murder.”
The publication of the letter to Roncalli will only add to the controversy surrounding Pope Pius XII, making it difficult for the Vatican to ignore accusations that the Vatican under his tenure did not do enough to combat Nazi persecution of Jews, and even helped Nazi war criminals to evade justice.
I think Mr. Luzzato goes way overboard. I don’t see how you accuse the Church “completely ignored the Holocaust” when the whole issue surround children that were saved from Hitler.

Recusing and sheltering these children was a great work. But no purpose is served by taking a simplistic view of what should be done with these children after the war. No parents or relatives (the people under law responsible for them) came forward. The institutions of the Jewish community in France had been destroyed by the Nazis and at this stage it was unclear if even a Jewish community would be re-built in France.

Nevertheless, the Church struggled over this. Archbishop Roncalli felt they should be turned over to a foreign Jewish organization so that they could be entrusted to the Jewish community. Other Catholics felt that, as the legal guardian of the children at the momement, they had a responsibility for their best interests and they held a different view.

Opinions on this can differ, but I do not think the harshness in the statement is called for.
 
Ah, thanks stillsmallvoice!

I can understand the Pope’s actions, and it is commendable that Pius didn’t tiptoe his way around what he did and openly said he didn’t care and he’d stick to the cathecism. However from the point of view of our generations liberal-ness with religion, it still seems like quite a harsh action. Although we know the ‘anti-semitism’ of Pius is false, though he was indeed critical of actual events that did involve Jewish people. This case strikes me as rather harsh even though it did turn out alright for the child.
 
Hello all

Yes I smell another lawsuit or another forced apology from the Pope, cant the past be the past? We should complain and ask for money for being fed to the lions!
 
It’s funny to see in the same article an accusation of anti-semitism and acknowlegment that the Church saved many Jewish children. :hmmm:

The letter seems a bit suspicious to me though, the last part about the holy father just seems tacked on.

Anyways from the Israeli article it states that the Pope didn’t want orphans given to non-christian institutions. Pre-Vatican II, the church would have alot of anxiety about someone who had received baptism and then rejected Christ, thereby damning himself.

Here’s the supposed letter. Anyone read Italian?

*Pubblichiamo la traduzione dall’originale francese del documento, datato 20 ottobre 1946, che fu trasmesso dal Sant’Uffizio al nunzio apostolico Angelo Roncalli. L’originale si trova presso gli Archivi della Chiesa di Francia. *

A proposito dei bambini giudei che, durante l’occupazione tedesca, sono stati affidati alle istituzioni e alle famiglie cattoliche e che ora sono reclamati dalle istituzioni giudaiche perché siano loro restituiti, la Congregazione del Sant’Uffizio ha preso una decisione che si può riassumere così:
  1. Evitare, nella misura del possibile di rispondere per iscritto alle autorità giudaiche, ma farlo oralmente
  2. Ogni volta che sarà necessario rispondere, bisognerà dire che la Chiesa deve fare le sue indagini per studiare ogni caso particolare
  3. I bambini che sono stati battezzati non potranno essere affidati a istituzioni che non ne sappiano assicurare l’educazione cristiana
  4. I bambini che non hanno più i genitori e dei quali la Chiesa s’è fatta carico, non è conveniente che siano abbandonati dalla Chiesa stessa o affidati a persone che non hanno alcun diritto su di loro, a meno che non siano in grado di disporre di sé. Ciò evidentemente per i bambini che non fossero stati battezzati
  5. Se i bambini sono stati affidati (alla Chiesa) dai loro genitori e se i genitori ora li reclamano, potranno essere restituiti, ammesso che i bambini stessi non abbiano ricevuto il battesimo.
    Si noti che questa decisione della Congregazione del Sant’Uffizio è stata approvata dal Santo Padre.
 
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katherine2:
If Pius XII was not sympathetic to returning Jewish orphans in Catholic care to the Jewish community, it seems you can’t say no Jews were rescued by the Church. How did these orphans get there in the first place?
Thanks for injecting some sanity into this issue.

This issue deserves to be filed alongside the claims that Christianity caused the holocaust, in the trash.

It’s difficult to take people who make such unreasonable claims seriously.
 
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