Place in household

[EasterJoy]

That does not answer my post. its not even about women in the church its about the household.

What do you mean? Did you read the whole thing through? Did you read your orignal post, for that matter? Your question was *“I want to post it here and see what you guys have to say? Is it true? do any of you follow it? What do you think about it?” *How could our replies not be an answer to to a question as open-ended as that?

Unless you mistakenly gave the wrong web address, the piece you posted goes on and on about whether women should be pastors and what kind of home life female pastors have, but starts with a rather weird side trip through the penalties of head shaving for prostitutes. I tell you, though, you make my point about how badly-written it is. You read thoroughly enough to want to post it, and you don’t even know what the author’s point was.

Here’s the concluding paragraph. Decide for yourself:
So we see that men must be kind and loving to their wives and children, and wives must be in submission to their husbands. Are you the husband of a woman who is the head pastor of a church? You are both out of line and the order must be corrected. Are you a single woman who is the head pastor of a church? You are out of line and you need to pray and ask God to rise up a man who can be the head. Are you an Anglican woman seeking to be ordained? You are out of line. You can serve God in the full sense without usurping the authority God gave to men. Do you disagree with this text? You are out of line and you are not alone. People argued with Apostle Paul about this very issue 2,000 years ago. Do you agree with this text? Then may the peace of our Lord Jesus be upon you.

Do people STILL go by those rules that the men is the ‘authority’ over the woman in the household. Basically, to all the WIVES on here, do you submit to your husband?

I would say I submit to my husband, he would say we decide things together, and we’re both happy with the way we do things, whatever that is. If you put that in the context of the whole of Colossians 3, I think that is about right, especially in the context of this passage:

*“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection.” *Col. 3:12-14

Also, consider what Christ had to say to those in authority:
They came to Capernaum and, once inside the house, he began to ask them, “What were you arguing about on the way?” But they remained silent. They had been discussing among themselves on the way who was the greatest. Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all." Mark 9:33-35

We need to talk about authority and submission, but we have to take care that we use those terms as Christ taught about them.

 

[BlueShadow123]

What do you mean? Did you read the whole thing through? Did you read your orignal post, for that matter? Your question was *“I want to post it here and see what you guys have to say? Is it true? do any of you follow it? What do you think about it?” *How could our replies not be an answer to to a question as open-ended as that?

Unless you mistakenly gave the wrong web address, the piece you posted goes on and on about whether women should be pastors and what kind of home life female pastors have, but starts with a rather weird side trip through the penalties of head shaving for prostitutes. I tell you, though, you make my point about how badly-written it is. You read thoroughly enough to want to post it, and you don’t even know what the author’s point was.

Here’s the concluding paragraph. Decide for yourself:
So we see that men must be kind and loving to their wives and children, and wives must be in submission to their husbands. Are you the husband of a woman who is the head pastor of a church? You are both out of line and the order must be corrected. Are you a single woman who is the head pastor of a church? You are out of line and you need to pray and ask God to rise up a man who can be the head. Are you an Anglican woman seeking to be ordained? You are out of line. You can serve God in the full sense without usurping the authority God gave to men. Do you disagree with this text? You are out of line and you are not alone. People argued with Apostle Paul about this very issue 2,000 years ago. Do you agree with this text? Then may the peace of our Lord Jesus be upon you.

I would say I submit to my husband, he would say we decide things together, and we’re both happy with the way we do things, whatever that is. If you put that in the context of the whole of Colossians 3, I think that is about right, especially in the context of this passage:

"Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection." Col. 3:12-14

Also, consider what Christ had to say to those in authority:
They came to Capernaum and, once inside the house, he began to ask them, “What were you arguing about on the way?” But they remained silent. They had been discussing among themselves on the way who was the greatest. Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all." Mark 9:33-35

We need to talk about authority and submission, but we have to take care that we use those terms as Christ taught about them.

So in the end who in the house has the authority and submission?

 

[EasterJoy]

So in the end who in the house has the authority and submission?

Oh, without a doubt, he has the authority, just like my dad did and just like his dad did. You can ask our kids. Having said that, he’s not a tyrant, and I don’t feel as if he ever neglects to take my feelings into consideration. I can’t speak to his parents, but that is the way it was with my parents. Dad was in charge, but he put a very high priority on what Mom wanted and needed. He was not selfish about it.

Let’s put it this way: My husband has the final vote, not because he takes it for himself, but because I give it to him. When he turns out to be wrong, I don’t say “I told you so.” I say, “We decided, and we’ll live with what we get.” I don’t resent the arrangement, because he does not abuse it. From his standpoint, then, we really do make decisions together, and that is not inaccurate. It is just that in a parliment of two, it is much more peaceful if someone ultimately has the deciding vote. If you have two voters who only look out for themselves, though, it doesn’t work.

Or, as my uncle used to say, “I make all the major decisions, and she takes care of the minor stuff. So far, we’ve been lucky, because nothing major has come up!”

Seriously, though, whether you’re male or female, it is very important that you trust your spouse’s judgment. Otherwise, it is a very hard road. Most marital decision-making is joint decision-making. What sane person wants to make all those decisions without wise counsel? How can one spouse know everything, see everything? Who has insights into everything, from just one point of view? Even in the most traditional household, the wife needs to be heard. Not only is she’s going to use passive-aggressive means to assert her own opinion, but the man’s decisions are going to lack balance. You see it over and over. Wise men look for wives they think have something to say to them, and those men are far happier.

“Where a lone man may be overcome, two together can resist. A three-ply cord is not easily broken.” Eccl. 4:12 You pray, too. That is where you get the “three-ply cord”.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Oh, without a doubt, he has the authority, just like my dad did and just like his dad did. You can ask our kids. Having said that, he’s not a tyrant, and I don’t feel as if he ever neglects to take my feelings into consideration. I can’t speak to his parents, but that is the way it was with my parents. Dad was in charge, but he put a very high priority on what Mom wanted and needed. He was not selfish about it.

Let’s put it this way: My husband has the final vote, not because he takes it for himself, but because I give it to him. When he turns out to be wrong, I don’t say “I told you so.” I say, “We decided, and we’ll live with what we get.” I don’t resent the arrangement, because he does not abuse it. From his standpoint, then, we really do make decisions together, and that is not inaccurate. It is just that in a parliment of two, it is much more peaceful if someone ultimately has the deciding vote. If you have two voters who only look out for themselves, though, it doesn’t work.

Or, as my uncle used to say, “I make all the major decisions, and she takes care of the minor stuff. So far, we’ve been lucky, because nothing major has come up!”

Just wondering, why do you give him the authority? My generation doesn’t do that kinda thing anymore due to the feminist movement

 

[EasterJoy]

Just wondering, why do you give him the authority? My generation doesn’t do that kinda thing anymore due to the feminist movement

Because I married someone whose judgement I respect. I wanted to have that arrangement, so I chose a husband I thought worthy of having it.

IMO, feminist movement is about power struggles. Women saw that society was set up so that they weren’t being treated fairly, and they weren’t wrong. I think feminism is like communism in that respect. It has some realistic insight in terms of the problem–that is, that some people get the power in order to abuse it or indulge themselves at the expense of justice–but the “treatment” only makes the “disease” worse. It is possible to get the diagnosis right every time and still be a lousy doctor, after all!

There is probably a degree to which a power-struggle model is about as close to justice as we’re going to get in this world, where humans dole out the justice. It doesn’t have to be like that in marriage, though. Actually I don’t think it can be. In marriage, love has to be what runs things, not a struggle for power. A life based on a struggle for power is no marriage at all.

You have to realize, though, that I grew up in a family in which there was no oppression in the marriage. My dad guarded the importance of my mom’s opinion in the family in no uncertain terms. He demanded that she be shown respect, even more so than he demaned respect for himself. That makes a huge difference.

Oh, and by the way: I have nieces who married quite recently, and some in your generation definitely do that. You know where I’m betting, as far as who will have their picture in the paper announcing their 50th anniversaries, 50 years from now.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Because I married someone whose judgement I respect. I wanted to have that arrangement, so I chose a husband I thought worthy of having it.

IMO, feminist movement is about power struggles. Women saw that society was set up so that they weren’t being treated fairly, and they weren’t wrong. I think feminism is like communism in that respect. It has some realistic insight in terms of the problem–that is, that some people get the power in order to abuse it or indulge themselves at the expense of justice–but the “treatment” only makes the “disease” worse. It is possible to get the diagnosis right every time and still be a lousy doctor, after all!

There is probably a degree to which a power-struggle model is about as close to justice as we’re going to get in this world, where humans dole out the justice. It doesn’t have to be like that in marriage, though. Actually I don’t think it can be. In marriage, love has to be what runs things, not a struggle for power. A life based on a struggle for power is no marriage at all.

You have to realize, though, that I grew up in a family in which there was no oppression in the marriage. My dad guarded the importance of my mom’s opinion in the family in no uncertain terms. He demanded that she be shown respect, even more so than he demaned respect for himself. That makes a huge difference.

But my point is that there are no more dominant men and submissive woman. Well at least not that much anymore. There is no man who (at my age) would take ‘authority’ over a girl when they get married. Maybe there is, but not really anymore.
Thats not such a bad thing though. I guess it all just depends on how it works out.

One thing i will say is that two people who are controlling cannot marry, because conflict would arrise, just like two submissive people cannot marry because conflict will arise with them. One always has to be a bit different than the other for things to work out right.

 

[EasterJoy]

But my point is that there are no more dominant men and submissive woman. Well at least not that much anymore. There is no man who (at my age) would take ‘authority’ over a girl when they get married. Maybe there is, but not really anymore.
Thats not such a bad thing though. I guess it all just depends on how it works out.

One thing i will say is that two people who are controlling cannot marry, because conflict would arrise, just like two submissive people cannot marry because conflict will arise with them. One always has to be a bit different than the other for things to work out right.

Christian men do not assert their authority by being domineering. Well, I’m sure some try it, but that is not the mind of Christ. Neither do Christian wives fulfill their vocation by being doormats. The wife has to have a prophetic role; she can’t just stand by and be quiet no matter what kind of a train wreck is coming on the horizon.

There was a Korean airline that had a terrible crash record because the society had an overly strict protocol in terms of how people with lower status were allowed to speak to people with higher status. The flight crew didn’t have room to let the pilot know when he was committing normal human errors, even up to the point when a fatal crash was getting quite likely. Changing the protocol that ruled among the flight crews was necessary to keep the planes from crashing.

That doesn’t mean that successful airlines have committees flying them. It means that those in authority know that it is pointless to surround yourselves with an intelligent, resourceful, and well-trained support crew if you aren’t going to listen to a thing they say. If they can’t speak freely, there are going to be crashes. If they do that rudely, it is going to be the captain who becomes passive-aggressive. A good marriage recognizes that same principle. A wise captian takes the morale of his crew into account, and the need to be respectful of the dignity and abilities of the people who fly with him. In truth, the “flight conditions” dictate most of the decisions. The heirarchy in the cockpit merely serves to arrive at the decisions in the most effective and least contentious manner.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Christian men do not assert their authority by being domineering. Well, I’m sure some try it, but that is not the mind of Christ. Neither do Christian wives fulfill their vocation by being doormats. The wife has to have a prophetic role; she can’t just stand by and be quiet no matter what kind of a train wreck is coming on the horizon.

There was a Korean airline that had a terrible crash record because the society had an overly strict protocol in terms of how people with lower status were allowed to speak to people with higher status. The flight crew didn’t have room to let the pilot know when he was committing normal human errors, even up to the point when a fatal crash was getting quite likely. Changing the protocol that ruled among the flight crews was necessary to keep the planes from crashing.

That doesn’t mean that successful airlines have committees flying them. It means that those in authority know that it is pointless to surround yourselves with an intelligent, resourceful, and well-trained support crew if you aren’t going to listen to a thing they say. A good marriage is like that. A wise captian takes the morale of his crew into account, and the need to be respectful of the dignity and abilities of the people who fly with him. In truth, the “flight conditions” dictate most of the decisions. The heirarchy in the cockpit merely serves to arrive at the decisions in the most effective and least contentious manner.

oh no no, thats not what i meant at all.
My definition of dominant is somebody who has authority to make the ‘top-dog’ choices, lol. I did meant mean as if steping on people lower then them, just authority is all. But my main point is that people dont do that anymore. but once again, it can be a good or bad thing.

 

[EasterJoy]

One thing i will say is that two people who are controlling cannot marry, because conflict would arrise, just like two submissive people cannot marry because conflict will arise with them. One always has to be a bit different than the other for things to work out right.

There are emergency physicians who marry and have very happy marriages, even though both partners are quite capable of making decisions and running five things at once. What is required is mutual respect.

 

[EasterJoy]

oh no no, thats not what i meant at all.
My definition of dominant is somebody who has authority to make the ‘top-dog’ choices, lol. I did meant mean as if steping on people lower then them, just authority is all. But my main point is that people don’t do that anymore. but once again, it can be a good or bad thing.

There are very few dogs who don’t have someone in authority over them. You don’t even get to be archbishop without being able to give your opinion and then submit to the decisions of Rome.

And boy, oh Friday, if you don’t know how to exert your authority calmly and yet in no uncertain terms, you had better wait to become a Mom!!

 

[BlueShadow123]

There are very few dogs who don’t have someone in authority over them. You don’t even get to be archbishop without being able to give your opinion and then submit to the decisions of Rome.

And boy, oh Friday, if you don’t know how to exert your authority calmly and yet in no uncertain terms, you had better wait to become a Mom!!

Well acting calmly is only rational. i dont know if you were aiming that at me though, as i never said anything about marriage.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well acting calmly is only rational. i dont know if you were aiming that at me though, as i never said anything about marriage.

Oh, my. If you think it is easy to remain rational with a child having a tantrum, I don’t think you’ve tried it! But that wasn’t aimed at you, only at the topic of the importance of married people to be able to assert authority. The women need that, too.

I think you’re right about this: A lot of people have no experience with a healthy relationship in which one party freely accepts putting another in a position of authority. Everyone seems to think that it is a necessary evil, that the whole point of life is to get whatever authority you can for yourself, and to keep as much autonomy as you can for yourself. Freely giving someone else their own way without a scoreboard assuring you that you’ll get that back is not much in vogue. I’m going to reject being relativistic here, and not say that is neither good nor bad. That really is too bad. What a terrible way to live.

 

[Tiribulus]

But my point is that there are no more dominant men and submissive woman. Well at least not that much anymore. There is no man who (at my age) would take ‘authority’ over a girl when they get married. Maybe there is, but not really anymore.
Thats not such a bad thing though. I guess it all just depends on how it works out.

One thing i will say is that two people who are controlling cannot marry, because conflict would arrise, just like two submissive people cannot marry because conflict will arise with them. One always has to be a bit different than the other for things to work out right.

You’re missing the point. Headship and submission are functions of the created order of God who made them male and female. Properly practiced they compliment and complete one another. One is no more important or valuable before God than the other.

The bible everywhere cites the order of God’s design as the source of Adam as head and Eve as indispensable helper without which Adam is alone and which state of affairs is “not good” by the declaration of God Himself.

The man is commanded to love his wife as Christ loves the church and as himself which is a profoundly awesome (and joyful) responsibility. The women is commanded to submit to her husband as to the Lord in everything because the husband is the head of the wife. Paul in Ephesians 5 goes so far as to say that this order is a direct analogy to Christ and His church which by definition precludes any tampering by us.

As God pronounced the consequences of Adam and Eve falling into sin in the 3rd of Genesis He told the woman that her desire would be for her husband which is tough to translate from the Hebrew there. It includes the meaning that she will contend for his authority, but he will rule over her. A state of tension not intended and which must be defeated by both the man and the woman in new covenant grace.

God is not reading up on the latest hip n groovy sociological trends of modern man for tips on how to repair his apparently deficient design.

 

[BlueShadow123]

God is not reading up on the latest hip n groovy sociological trends of modern man for tips on how to repair his apparently deficient design.

im sorry but that made me laugh. Anyways my point is that even christians in my generation today do not follow this due to the feminist movement.

 

[Sullibe]

I’ll bite. I’m 31, I’ve been married for almost 10 years, and yes ultimately I submit to my husband. As a loving husband he asks me my opinions, he considers my feelings, he considers the children and all of our likes and dislikes, concerns and trepidations. But when a major decision has to be made, after considering all aspects including my views, he ultimately makes that decision.

Now that doesn’t mean that if a child needs a new t-shirt, or I need a new pair of socks we have to seek him out to “get permission” or so he can tell us what kind to get. Nor does it means that he makes me follow him around the house, falling on my knees and telling him what a great man and great husband and father he is all day long. I do not literally sit patiently by his feet waiting for him to give me some command to follow. (And right at this moment, he’s downstairs cleaning the breakfast dishes.)

What it does mean is that I trust in God who called us to be married and to start a family and therefore I trust in my husband to do what is in the best interest of the family. Decisions to be made that involve the entire family such as schooling choices, moving, buy a house, buying a car, most furniture, etc… etc… I express my opinions and my concerns, but he makes the decision. The great thing is, usually we are on the same page and of the same mind about the decision to be made anyway. In 10 years of marriage there have been VERY FEW instances where we have disagreed, and even then the decisions he made worked out well.

Hope that helps.

 

[Tiribulus]

I’ll bite. I’m 31, I’ve been married for almost 10 years, and yes ultimately I submit to my husband. As a loving husband he asks me my opinions, he considers my feelings, he considers the children and all of our likes and dislikes, concerns and trepidations. But when a major decision has to be made, after considering all aspects including my views, he ultimately makes that decision.

Now that doesn’t mean that if a child needs a new t-shirt, or I need a new pair of socks we have to seek him out to “get permission” or so he can tell us what kind to get. Nor does it means that he makes me follow him around the house, falling on my knees and telling him what a great man and great husband and father he is all day long. I do not literally sit patiently by his feet waiting for him to give me some command to follow. (And right at this moment, he’s downstairs cleaning the breakfast dishes.)

What it does mean is that I trust in God who called us to be married and to start a family and therefore I trust in my husband to do what is in the best interest of the family. Decisions to be made that involve the entire family such as schooling choices, moving, buy a house, buying a car, most furniture, etc… etc… I express my opinions and my concerns, but he makes the decision. The great thing is, usually we are on the same page and of the same mind about the decision to be made anyway. In 10 years of marriage there have been VERY FEW instances where we have disagreed, and even then the decisions he made worked out well.

Hope that helps.

Very VERY good post indeed. (I’m doing laundry at the moment btw) It is not the least bit unmanly or unscriptural to do some housework or recognize when your wife is better at something than you are, like bills:hypno:

Notice in Ephesians 5 Paul does not say “the man is to be the head of the wife”. He says the man IS the head whether he or she likes it or not. He may be an irresponsible pagan and an abysmal excuse for a husband, but he is the head nonetheless albeit a terribly remiss one who is living in sin. God will hold him accountable.

Even in that case Peter (1st epistle ch. 3) calls the wives to godly submission (in all things lawful) with a gentle and quiet spirit which God will use to convict this childish slug of his sin.

These truths are not in any way cultural, They are rooted in creation itself and are departed from to the displeasure of God.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ll bite. I’m 31, I’ve been married for almost 10 years, and yes ultimately I submit to my husband. As a loving husband he asks me my opinions, he considers my feelings, he considers the children and all of our likes and dislikes, concerns and trepidations. But when a major decision has to be made, after considering all aspects including my views, he ultimately makes that decision.

Now that doesn’t mean that if a child needs a new t-shirt, or I need a new pair of socks we have to seek him out to “get permission” or so he can tell us what kind to get. Nor does it means that he makes me follow him around the house, falling on my knees and telling him what a great man and great husband and father he is all day long. I do not literally sit patiently by his feet waiting for him to give me some command to follow. (And right at this moment, he’s downstairs cleaning the breakfast dishes.)

What it does mean is that I trust in God who called us to be married and to start a family and therefore I trust in my husband to do what is in the best interest of the family. Decisions to be made that involve the entire family such as schooling choices, moving, buy a house, buying a car, most furniture, etc… etc… I express my opinions and my concerns, but he makes the decision. The great thing is, usually we are on the same page and of the same mind about the decision to be made anyway. In 10 years of marriage there have been VERY FEW instances where we have disagreed, and even then the decisions he made worked out well.

Hope that helps.

I second this. The key is to marry someone whose judgement you respect. If a husband thinks his wife is hare-brained, he won’t trust her with the amount of authority she actually ought to have in the family. That is help he cannot easily do without.

 

[BlueShadow123]

I’ll bite. I’m 31, I’ve been married for almost 10 years, and yes ultimately I submit to my husband. As a loving husband he asks me my opinions, he considers my feelings, he considers the children and all of our likes and dislikes, concerns and trepidations. But when a major decision has to be made, after considering all aspects including my views, he ultimately makes that decision.

Now that doesn’t mean that if a child needs a new t-shirt, or I need a new pair of socks we have to seek him out to “get permission” or so he can tell us what kind to get. Nor does it means that he makes me follow him around the house, falling on my knees and telling him what a great man and great husband and father he is all day long. I do not literally sit patiently by his feet waiting for him to give me some command to follow. (And right at this moment, he’s downstairs cleaning the breakfast dishes.)

What it does mean is that I trust in God who called us to be married and to start a family and therefore I trust in my husband to do what is in the best interest of the family. Decisions to be made that involve the entire family such as schooling choices, moving, buy a house, buying a car, most furniture, etc… etc… I express my opinions and my concerns, but he makes the decision. The great thing is, usually we are on the same page and of the same mind about the decision to be made anyway. In 10 years of marriage there have been VERY FEW instances where we have disagreed, and even then the decisions he made worked out well.

Hope that helps.

Of course, and this is my whole point to the post that I made. I said in an earlier post that it was not about ‘control’ and of course respect has to be made.
you pretty much took everything ive thought to be healthy and made it into a post. Im glad you agree with me on this.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Very VERY good post indeed. (I’m doing laundry at the moment btw) It is not the least bit unmanly or unscriptural to do some housework or recognize when your wife is better at something than you are, like bills:hypno:

Notice in Ephesians 5 Paul does not say “the man is to be the head of the wife”. He says the man IS the head whether he or she likes it or not. He may be an irresponsible pagan and an abysmal excuse for a husband, but he is the head nonetheless albeit a terribly remiss one who is living in sin. God will hold him accountable.

Even in that case Peter (1st epistle ch. 3) calls the wives to godly submission (in all things lawful) with a gentle and quiet spirit which God will use to convict this childish slug of his sin.

These truths are not in any way cultural, They are rooted in creation itself and are departed from to the displeasure of God.

I have to agree here with you on this, but also due to the fact that the feminist movement has taken place, most people in my generation would not even think twice about this. There would be no ‘head’ or authority in a household because they don’t believe thats how it should be.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have to agree here with you on this, but also due to the fact that the feminist movement has taken place, most people in my generation would not even think twice about this. There would be no ‘head’ or authority in a household because they don’t believe thats how it should be.

Yet I don’t think the couples who don’t believe anyone is in authority are much worse off than the ones who think they do, but who have a warped idea concerning what that means. As nearly as I can tell from the statistics, the marriages of the latter aren’t healthier or happier, and they may be worse. When Scriptures told the men to be as Christ, he did not have in mind that they act like tyrants.