Placement of Candles - Two 'Altars'?

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Elzee

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We used to have a candle lit on both sides of the altar during Mass (about 4 feet high, in brass stands). I’ve noticed the past few weeks that there is sitll a candle on one side of the altar but the candle that was on the opposite side of the altar has been moved and it now stands next to the ambo. I was told this was to give equal reverance to both the ‘Altar of the Word’ and the ‘Altar of the Eucharist’. Is this a new change?
 
I attended Mass with my mom yesterday at her parish, and in addition to the two altar candles, they now have two identical candles flanking the ambo. I don’t know if it’s a new rule or not, but I thought it was a nice touch, especially considering this parish is far from normal in regards to liturgical discipline.

However, I don’t think I like the idea of sacrificing one of the altar candles for the ambo. Good grief, just buy a couple more candle sticks. :nope:
 
I found this from the GIRM 117:

**The altar is to be covered with at least one white cloth. In addition, on or next to the altar are to be placed candlesticks with lighted candles: at least two in any celebration, or even four or six, especially for a Sunday Mass or a holy day of obligation. If the Diocesan Bishop celebrates, then seven candles should be used.

**So I’d say there have to be at least two candles next to the altar. Also, I’m not sure about giving equal reverence to the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Sounds a bit odd to me and needs more explanation. :confused:
 
Some churches place the altar to one side of center and the ambo to the other side of center symbolically showing that the Liturgy of the Word and the Eucharist are equally important. In our church, a candle is placed on each side of the ambo during the Liturgy of the Word and then the candles are moved to each side of the altar during the Offetory and remain there until the end of Mass.
 
Wow, this is a new one.

The ambo and the altar are not equal nor should they be treated with equal reverence. And no the practice is not a new one but it is an innovation in your local parish.

As the GIRM states as stated above there are to be at least two candles at the altar. It has become tradition to have two candles flanking the ambo durring the reading of the Gospel which is fine but they are not to be there during any other period of the liturgy. Definatelly the altar should not be moved from the center of the sanctuary and offset by the ambo. These are all very interesting forms of liturgical abuse.
 
It seems like a new change at your parish. Whose idea was it? I think it is bad form. The Eucharistic Prayer is the central element of the Mass and it is done on the Alter. Since my Chapel does not have a Tabernacle I bow to the Alter When I take my seat for Mass and when I leave. Unless someone is Reading the Word of God or speaking from the ambo, I ignore it.

I like what our parish does during Mass. The Book of the Gospels is treated reverently. It is processed by the Deacon or the reader if the Deacon is not present and stood on the Alter for the Liturgy of the Word. The Deacon reverently retrieves it for the Gospel reading and goes to the Priest for his blessing. Then the Deacon carries the Book of the Gospels aloft to the ambo. After delivering the Good News the book of the Gospels is left at the ambo without ceremony. I would prefer if we displayed the Book of the Gospels say in front of the ambo or to its side during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Then a smaller candle would probably be appropriate. I guess we don’t do that because it could distract a bit from the consecration.

Is the candle for the ambo or is the Book of the Gospels being honored?

Christ’s Peace,

TJD
 
In the booklet “Celebrating The Mass” issued by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales as guide and companion to the GIRM it states in the section on Liturgy of the Eucharist, which comes after the section “liturgy of the Word”, - “First the altar, the Lord’s table, is prepared as the centre of the Eucharistic liturgy. Until this point in the celebration, with the exception of the veneration at the beginning, the altar has not been the focus of attention. It remains almost bare and unused during the Liturgy of the Word, which is centred at the ambo.”

It would seem quite approriate that candles are placed either side of the ambo during the Liturgy of the Word and them moved to either side of the altar to show the shift of focus.
 
It’s easy to get into discussions about what the GIRM says or doesn’t say about things. But at our church we have one candle each side of the altar and one each side of the AMBO. We begin mass with altar servers carring two lit candles in procession and putting them each side of the Ambo. After the Liturgy of the Word, these two candles are extinguished and the two near the altar are lit. We mean this to signify the change in focus from the Ambo to the Altar. The altar servers carry the lit Altar candles for the closing procession.

Prior to getting a seperate set of candles, we used to move the two from the Ambo to the Altar at the end of the LOW to accomplish the same purpose. Another pastor had them lit at the altar, and two servers would carry them to the Ambo and hold them during the gospel, one on each side. I think these are all ways of showing the same thing. Christ is present to us in the WORD and in th eEUCHARIST.
 
another question about candels…I remember looking at candels online and seeing something odd. Is there a requirement that Candels used in Church require that they are made at least 51% Beeswax?
 
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Sanctus:
another question about candels…I remember looking at candels online and seeing something odd. Is there a requirement that Candels used in Church require that they are made at least 51% Beeswax?
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I couldn’t see anything in the GIRM, but the Guidelines from the Bishops Conference for England and Wales says they should be genuine wax candles (doesn’t say beeswax) and also says the use of “fake” candles with wax or oil inserts, is not permitted at Mass, although I do know of at least one churches that uses these.
 
I know that it sounds trite to argue about candle placement but all this speaks to a larger problem. Novilty is not supposed to be brought into the liturgy. The rubrics for the mass state very clearly what is to be done with the candles and how they are to be used and none of the above comments from their respective parishes fulfill the requirements set forth by the Holy See. I don’t see what is so hard about following the rubrics. Really, one person may think it is nice but really when all is said and done it is really just a violation against obedience.
 
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mosher:
I know that it sounds trite to argue about candle placement but all this speaks to a larger problem. Novilty is not supposed to be brought into the liturgy. The rubrics for the mass state very clearly what is to be done with the candles and how they are to be used and none of the above comments from their respective parishes fulfill the requirements set forth by the Holy See. I don’t see what is so hard about following the rubrics. Really, one person may think it is nice but really when all is said and done it is really just a violation against obedience.
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Please could you be a bit more specific about which “novelties” you are referring to, and what rules they are breaking, and where these rules are promulgated. I think your accusation is a bit general.
You have to bear in mind that Bishops Conferences have discretion over many things, and there is inculturatiuon to take into account. I hope we are not going bak to the old days when every gesture was exactly prescribed and a priest could commit something over 30 mortal sins during mass by doing something slightly different than the exact movement that was specified. Robotic priests give rise to robotic laity, and joyless Masses.
 
This is from a document from the US Catholic Conference of Bishops regarding Art and Environment in the church.

Candles
§ 92 § Candles, which are signs of reverence and festivity, "are to be used at every liturgical service.116 The living flame of the candle, symbolic of the risen Christ, reminds people that in baptism they are brought out of darkness into God’s marvelous light.117 For the celebration of the Eucharist it is appropriate to carry candles in the entrance procession and during the procession with the Book of the Gospels.118 At least two candles are placed near the altar in the sanctuary area. If there is a lack of space, they may be placed on the altar. Four or six candles may be used for the celebration of Mass and for exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. If the bishop of the diocese celebrates, seven candles may be used. Candles placed in floor-standing bases or on the altar should be arranged so they do not obscure the view of the ritual action in the sanctuary, especially the action at the altar.

§ 93 § Candles for liturgical use should be made of a material that provides “a living flame without being smoky or noxious.” To safeguard “authenticity and the full symbolism of light,” electric lights as a substitute for candles are not permitted.119
 
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steve99:
Please could you be a bit more specific about which “novelties” you are referring to, and what rules they are breaking, and where these rules are promulgated. I think your accusation is a bit general.
You have to bear in mind that Bishops Conferences have discretion over many things, and there is inculturatiuon to take into account. I hope we are not going bak to the old days when every gesture was exactly prescribed and a priest could commit something over 30 mortal sins during mass by doing something slightly different than the exact movement that was specified. Robotic priests give rise to robotic laity, and joyless Masses.
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Yes very general because they were all incorrect. The rubrics are well stated and no permissions to my knowledge in either the US nor in the UK have been approved since all were revoked at the promulgation of Liturgicum Authenticum concerning candles.

The GIRM is silent about the practices of the individual parishes noted above and as the rubrics state it is not the place of an indivudal priest or bishop to modify that which he is not given authority to modify per the rubrics (as they state what are allowable alterations).

As yes, we are going back to greater care for the proper celebration of the liturgy. However, I believe that there is a general bias against that because things have been played so fast and loose for the last 40 years. Thanks be to God things are begining to come around. People forget that each and every action in the liturgy is placed there for a purpose and that is why any modification must be approved by the Holy See because they have to insure that the requested modification does not conflict with what is trying to be taught by a specific motion, movement or placement of a candle.
 
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mosher:
People forget that each and every action in the liturgy is placed there for a purpose and that is why any modification must be approved by the Holy See because they have to insure that the requested modification does not conflict with what is trying to be taught by a specific motion, movement or placement of a candle.
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So what is being taught by processing up the aisle with candles with the book of the Gospels and then placing the candles on or near the altar when the focus is on the ***ambo ***where Gospel is being read. We are told that Christ is present in his Word i.e. in what is happening at the ambo, but at that time he is not present on the altar. So why candles there and not at the ambo. Is the answer “Because Rome says so?”
 
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steve99:
So what is being taught by processing up the aisle with candles with the book of the Gospels and then placing the candles on or near the altar when the focus is on the ***ambo ***where Gospel is being read. We are told that Christ is present in his Word i.e. in what is happening at the ambo, but at that time he is not present on the altar. So why candles there and not at the ambo. Is the answer “Because Rome says so?”
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Roma dixit was good enough for St. Augustine.

First of all if the Book of the Gospels is to be processed it is done from altar to ambo as prescribed not up the aisle. In the procession the lighted candles are usually flanking the processional cross during the entrance rite. If a seperate Book of the Gospels is used it is processed in at this time and resserved on the altar until the reading of the Gospel. The process is then the Deacon (if there is a deacon) is to ask for the blessing from the priest and then go to the altar and recieve the gospel and process it to the ambo this can be done and is traditionally done with the two candles flanking him in reverence of the presence of Christ in the Word. However, technically the candles from the altar should not be used for this because the sacredness of the altar does not cease during any time of the celebration. Also, they refer back to the horns on the altar of sacrafice in the Temple. The candles flanking the Book of the Gospels is optional however proper during the reading of the Gospel. If a seperate book of the Gospels is not used in the celebration of the liturgy then no seperate procession is to be made nor is the lectionary to be processed. The biggest problem is that the mode of presence of Christ in the Gospels and on the altar are not the same. Christ is not present in the same way. Further the altar of sacrifice holds higher presidence to the altar of the word because of that same mode of presence. On the most simplistic of all levels whatis being taught is that the confecting of the Eucharist is the highest mode of presence of Christ and all other modes are subordinated for the sake of the faithfuls understanding of the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
 
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mosher:
The biggest problem is that the mode of presence of Christ in the Gospels and on the altar are not the same. Christ is not present in the same way.
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I agree. But surely Christ is not present at all on the altar until the consecration, by which time the focus has shifted off the ambo and onto the altar.
I have been to a Benedictine Abbey (and Benedictines are very formal and correct) where the altar is completely bare until the start of the Liturgy of the Eucharist (may have the cloth on - I can’t remember). The monks stay in their stalls behind the altar until then. At that point they process down and gather round the altar. The Missal and Sacred Vessels are brought on. It’s very powerful symbolism.
The problem to me seems to be that people go to far and then Rome clamps down. In doing so it gets very restrictive and stifling. and we are back to some of the absudities of pre-vatican II rules (and I’ll quote you some if you like).
There was a ruling recently (can’t remember in which document) that said the number of candles on the altar for Adorattion must not be more than the number used for Mass. Now someone told me this was because some places used a blaze of lights for Adoration and a couple of measly candles for Mass (I’m exagerating a bit), and the ruling was to emphasis that the Mass should not be outshone, so to speak, by Adoration.
So if you follow this strictly then you could have four little candles for Mass and four blockbusters for Adoration and be OK. But have four huge candles for Mass and six small ones for Adoration and shouts of Liturgical Abuse go up.
This whole thing needs some common sense.
 
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Dimekt:
Some churches place the altar to one side of center and the ambo to the other side of center symbolically showing that the Liturgy of the Word and the Eucharist are equally important.
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but they’re not!
 
Sorry, I’m not buying it. The ambo is in no way on par with the Alter.

The Book of the Gospels deserves great respect because of what it contains, the writings of the four evangelists…the writings about Christ’s life, death and resurrection. Think about it, we sit in our pews during the first reading, we sit in our pews during the psalm, and we sit in our pew during the second reading. Not because they are not important, God is present in these readings. However, we stand during the Gospel reading. Why you may ask, because it is special. The Gospel is set apart form the other readings, it is more important. Candles can appropriately set off the Gospel reading from the other readings. As far as the Liturgy of the Word goes, the Gospel is the central element.

None-the-less the whole Liturgy of the Word supports the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Sure, Mass would be incomplete without the Liturgy of the Word, but the central part of the Mass is the consecration. This is why we set off the Alter as special with candles.

Without the Liturgy of the Eucharist there is no sacrifice of the Mass. The Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are not two equal halves.

Christ’s Peace,

TJD
 
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steve99:
I agree. But surely Christ is not present at all on the altar until the consecration, by which time the focus has shifted off the ambo and onto the altar.
I have been to a Benedictine Abbey (and Benedictines are very formal and correct) where the altar is completely bare until the start of the Liturgy of the Eucharist (may have the cloth on - I can’t remember). The monks stay in their stalls behind the altar until then. At that point they process down and gather round the altar. The Missal and Sacred Vessels are brought on. It’s very powerful symbolism.
The problem to me seems to be that people go to far and then Rome clamps down. In doing so it gets very restrictive and stifling. and we are back to some of the absudities of pre-vatican II rules (and I’ll quote you some if you like).
There was a ruling recently (can’t remember in which document) that said the number of candles on the altar for Adorattion must not be more than the number used for Mass. Now someone told me this was because some places used a blaze of lights for Adoration and a couple of measly candles for Mass (I’m exagerating a bit), and the ruling was to emphasis that the Mass should not be outshone, so to speak, by Adoration.
So if you follow this strictly then you could have four little candles for Mass and four blockbusters for Adoration and be OK. But have four huge candles for Mass and six small ones for Adoration and shouts of Liturgical Abuse go up.
This whole thing needs some common sense.
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Assuming a few things based on the post I would say that the Benedictine Abbey that was attended was not liturgically correct in the first place because the CDW has stated that the altar is not to be bare during any portion of the Liturgy (baring one exception during the Triduum). But assuming that the altar was properly dressed it would be correct for the monks who are priests to come from the stalls to the altar because that is the proper form for concelebration of the Liturgy. There would only be a problem if the lay monks (monks not priests) were to also gather around the altar.

The problem which you address or “rubricism” is different than what I would argue. Rubrics are there for a reason. They are liturgical law and each priest is charged to carefully celebrate the liturgy according to the rubrics because much effort has been taken to use signs and symbols down to the smallest gesture to teach the faith. At times we forget that the liturgy is didactic by nature and it cannot be seperated from its grace imparting character. Rubrics should be followed for two primary reasons. The first is the love of the liturgy and the second is obedience to the Church. A third and intrinsic to the first two is that the rubrics must be followed so that there is not some inconsistancy or contradiction in what is being taught by the form of the liturgy. It is not in any way rubrics for the sake of rubrics which happend and still happens because of poor catechisis of priests and laiety as to why each rubric is there. One thing I learned in the seminary when studying such things is that each law is placed there for a reason and each law has a story and history and once one understands why it is there then it all begins to make a lot more sense and the arbitrary changing of things begins to be quite troublesome.
 
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