Plagues Or Loss of Life? Gotta know....Help

[CopticChristian]

The Letter Revelation ends with this warning…

1. If anyone add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) And if anyone **take away **from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree 10 of life, and [out of] the holy city, which are written in this book.

Does this passage refer only to Revelation or to the entire Bible. It is really important and I need help to see what others say. Help me understand this. I have read and seen both sides and do not understand.

 

[Nine_Two]

The passage was written for the epistle which predates the bible.

However the same warning could be applied not simply to scripture, but to the entirety of Christianity.
Those who add things to the faith put themselves in danger, as do those who discard elements of it.

 

[Sam_777]

“This book” = “canon of scripture” = “The Bible”.

 

[Hesychios]

“This book” = “canon of scripture” = “The Bible”.

Actually no.

When it says ‘this book’ it means just that. The book of Revelation does not equal the entire canon of scripture.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The Letter Revelation ends with this warning…

Does this passage refer only to Revelation or to the entire Bible. It is really important and I need help to see what others say. Help me understand this. I have read and seen both sides and do not understand.

The book of Revelation alone, because it was written separately, and was canonized with the rest of the Bible much later. In fact, there were initially many doubts over the authenticity of Revelation, so in some cases it was already handled “separately” from the rest of the canon of Scripture.

So I would agree with Nine_Two and Heyschios.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The book of Revelation alone, because it was written separately, and was canonized with the rest of the Bible much later. In fact, there were initially many doubts over the authenticity of Revelation, so in some cases it was already handled “separately” from the rest of the canon of Scripture.

So I would agree with Nine_Two and Heyschios.

I agree.

 

[CopticChristian]

“This book” = “canon of scripture” = “The Bible”.

Sam,

You and two have taken the side that I have seen many Protestant commentaries take. So here is the conundrum…

Did the Catholic Church add the DC in effect add to Christianity?

or

Did Protestants remove the DC in effect remove from Christianity?

Gotta know.

 

[Hesychios]

I want to be clear in my response.

The passage quoted refers ONLY to the Book of Revelation.

However I absolutely agree with the statement of Nine_Two, as he put it …
*“However the same warning could be applied not simply to scripture, but to the entirety of Christianity.
Those who add things to the faith put themselves in danger, as do those who discard elements of it.”

*Ours is a Revealed Religion. It comes from God Himself. The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ taught the Apostles, and the Apostles passed along this faith. By omitting what is inconvenient to believe we are ignoring and offending God, and by adding to what was not taught we are lying in Gods name!

We have no right to add to or subtract from the received Faith.

This is serious business. Being custodians of the faith is a most glorious responsibility, and at the same time perilous. Bishops and clergy who mislead their charges or scandalize the faithful will answer for the damage to souls that results on Judgment Day. It reminds me of the Arc of the Covenant, which killed people who touched it.

 

[CopticChristian]

I want to be clear in my response.

The passage quoted refers ONLY to the Book of Revelation.

However I absolutely agree with the statement of Nine_Two, as he put it …
“However the same warning could be applied not simply to scripture, but to the entirety of Christianity.
Those who add things to the faith put themselves in danger, as do those who discard elements of it.”

Ours is a Revealed Religion. It comes from God Himself. The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ taught the Apostles, and the Apostles passed along this faith. By omitting what is inconvenient to believe we are ignoring and offending God, and by adding to what was not taught we are lying in Gods name!

We have no right to add to or subtract from the received Faith.

This is serious business. Being custodians of the faith is a most glorious responsibility, and at the same time perilous. Bishops and clergy who mislead their charges or scandalize the faithful will answer for the damage to souls that results on Judgment Day. It reminds me of the Arc of the Covenant, which killed people who touched it.

Hes,

I see you changed your Avatar…would you suggest that removing the DC from the Bible would be tantamount to subtracting from the Faith or is that not important?

 

[stewstew03]

Those who add things to the faith put themselves in danger, as do those who discard elements of it.

What are the elements of faith?

 

[Nine_Two]

Sam,

You and two have taken the side that I have seen many Protestant commentaries take. So here is the conundrum…

Did the Catholic Church add the DC in effect add to Christianity?

or

Did Protestants remove the DC in effect remove from Christianity?

Gotta know.

To clarify I didn’t take the position that it applies to all scripture, I said the message can be applied to the faith as a whole. The canon of scripture could, in my mind, be altered at will (though it shouldn’t be) as long as it doesn’t alter the content of the faith. Canon isn’t as important as the faith. It is an incidental.

 

[CopticChristian]

To clarify I didn’t take the position that it applies to all scripture, I said the message can be applied to the faith as a whole. The canon of scripture could, in my mind, be altered at will (though it shouldn’t be) as long as it doesn’t alter the content of the faith. Canon isn’t as important as the faith. It is an incidental.

In another Post, Wisely, an Orthodox Brother, had some things to say about the Canon…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=685568

and pointed to this website

onbehalfofall.org/2012/03/31/saint-justin-and-the-divine-origin-of-the-septuagint/

So then, a few key things we can take away from Saint Justin’s account are that:

(1) The Septuagint’s translation was guided by the Holy Spirit and is of divine origin as a translation;
(2) The story of its origins is completely true, as verified by Justin himself just a few hundred years after it occurred
(3) The Septuagint was translated for the sake of Christians, so that the way would be paved for its doctrines;

This suggests that the Septuagint is as an inspired translation a part of the deposit of Faith…

 

[Hesychios]

Hes,

I see you changed your Avatar…would you suggest that removing the DC from the Bible would be tantamount to subtracting from the Faith or is that not important?

The DeuteroCanon is, if I remember correctly, some of the books in the Septuagint for which Jewish scholars could not find originals in Hebrew.

The story goes (I don’t know if this is true, but I will accept it for arguments sake) that the scholars saw in these works underpinnings for some very Christian beliefs, and Christians were using reference to them in efforts to convince Jews to convert. So they restricted the Jewish canon of scripture to not include them. It was censorship.

Jerome noticed that the Jews were not using these books, and so did many other scholars.

Protestants were not the first to consider deleting the books, they were following a long list of people who had similar ideas. I think we can see though, how their absence has skewed the thinking of some protestants. I think that reluctance to pray for the dead is directly attributable to the fact that those books (mainly Maccabees) are not commonly read.

But we do this very same thing to ourselves when we pick and choose what we want to read, we might miss some great insight. Reading some, but not all, of Holy Scripture is no sin. It’s better than nothing.

But as to your question … the Holy Scripture is part of tradition, not the other way around. It exists to support the faith. The books selected for the canon of scripture were chosen because they can be read in a way that supports the orthodox Christian faith. Ripping pages out of a Bible will not change the faith, if the bishops, clergy and people are all focused on conserving and preserving the Apostolic Faith as they have received it. They will pray what they believe.

So someone might publish a ‘Readers Digest’ type version of the Bible (and Readers Digest did just that once) which does not include everything to save space and make it more affordable. That’s no sin, a lot of people will purchase a ‘New testament and Psalms’ edition that is easy to carry around (and ignore the entire balance of the Old Testament including the DC). Thank God for that! If they didn’t have that option some people might read nothing at all.

 

[57Bill]

I agree.

I’m in this camp.

What I don’t follow is the Greek word for book is biblio, there were no biblio’s when this was put to manuscript either by the author or oral tradition

 

[Nine_Two]

In another Post, Wisely, an Orthodox Brother, had some things to say about the Canon…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=685568

and pointed to this website

onbehalfofall.org/2012/03/31/saint-justin-and-the-divine-origin-of-the-septuagint/

This suggests that the Septuagint is as an inspired translation a part of the deposit of Faith…

He mostly just had the link.

What’s your point though? As Hesychios said, available canon varied from place to place. The contents of the LXX at any given place or time don’t have anything to do with the curse in the Apocalypse of St. John.

 

[CopticChristian]

He mostly just had the link.

What’s your point though? As Hesychios said, available canon varied from place to place. The contents of the LXX at any given place or time don’t have anything to do with the curse in the Apocalypse of St. John.

Nine,

My point is that I ran across many Protestant Commentaries that say that to subtract applied to the whole Bible like this…There are those Protestants that are distant from the denominational Protestants that do not know the history of what they use to preach…

Dr. Grant Richison

Principle:

God gives strong warnings against tampering with the Word of God.

Application:

God will weed out those who play with His Word. God gives strong warnings against tampering with the Word of God. We dare not add to or subtract from the Word of God. Both are grave issues with God. In Genesis 3, chapter 3, Eve made the mistake of adding the phrase “nor touch it” to God’s warning about eating from the Tree of Knowledge. By making the commandment seem stricter than it really was, she betrayed her suspicions about God and His goodness. Insulting His majesty this way was the first step on her road away from God.

“You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you” Deuteronomy 4:2).
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it” (Deuteronomy 12:32).

Here’s a commentary on verse 18 and 19 from Marsh

(18) The prophecy put forth in Revelation is complete. Dire penalties await those who add or subtract words that would change the meaning of any passage.** Like the rest of the Bible, one can not choose to accept one part of Revelation and ignore the rest. It comes as a whole piece and must be accepted or rejected as a whole.** This does not mean we have to understand everything about it, but we have to accept by faith that everything will become clear as the events come to take place.

(19) No true Christian would change the meaning of passages of this book (or by extension, the other books of the Bible). Thus, if someone intentionally rewords or interprets Scripture in a way that clearly violates the intent of the author (or God), it is likely that he is not a Christian, even if he claims to be one. There are parts of Scripture that can be interpreted in several ways. In other parts, the meaning of words, places, and phrases has been lost. In these cases, the interpreter must be very careful with how he might interpret a passage. However, if he keeps in mind the spirit and context of the entire Bible (and his relationship with God), he is more likely to make an accurate and useful interpretation of the obscure passage.

EW Bullinger

1. If anyone add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) And if anyone take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree 10 of life, and [out of] the holy city, which are written in this book.] He who has given this book (i. 1) now closes it with this solemn warning. This warning, while it may refer especially to this book, yet, by a very true application, takes in the whole Scripture./

QUOTE]

So if someone adheres to this then the reality is that subtraction of the DC leaves them with

1. And if anyone take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree 10 of life, and [out of] the holy city, which are written in this book.

being taken away from the tree of life…if you adhere to the removal from the entire book as opposed to the letter itself…

 

[Nine_Two]

I agree, there is a disconnect with taking books out of the traditional bible, and believing that doing such things will lead to having ones name taken from the book of life. Being wrong on two counts doesn’t usually make someone make sense.

My fear is such lines of argument validate their belief in the supremacy of scripture.

 

[Sam_777]

Actually no.

When it says ‘this book’ it means just that. The book of Revelation does not equal the entire canon of scripture.

Sam,

You and two have taken the side that I have seen many Protestant commentaries take. So here is the conundrum…

Did the Catholic Church add the DC in effect add to Christianity?

or

Did Protestants remove the DC in effect remove from Christianity?

Gotta know.

Please don’t get me wrong, but are you guys implying that it’s OK to change other books except the Revelation one?

I think Revelation 22:18 should and must be applied to the entire Bible.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please don’t get me wrong, but are you guys implying that it’s OK to change other books except the Revelation one?

I think Revelation 22:18 should and must be applied to the entire Bible.

Sam, v18-19 applies to the Book of Revelation only as the writer (John) would have in no way known what the canon of the scripture at that point in time since there was no canon yet. However, the principle in guarding the word of God should apply to the rest of the Bible as contain in the canon. Thus yes, I would say if we consider that the books which were chosen to be included in the canon as word of God, and then they should not be tinkled with, that is, any addition or subtraction to it.

 

[Sam_777]

Thus yes, I would say if we consider that the books which were chosen to be included in the canon as word of God, and then they should not be tinkled with, that is, any addition or subtraction to it.