Plasm 22

[Valke2]

The following opinion is brought to you by the people who gave you the Torah and national revelation:

Psalms 22 depicts the individual Jew praying for an end to Israel’s exile from its land and Temple. The original Hebrew (and the better translations) attributes King David as the author (verse 1). ANd it is David’s voice that we hear in the Psalm. He describes his own pain, anguish, and longing arising from when he was hiding from his enemies. What all this means is that Jews don’t view this as messianic psalm…

He refers to himself as a worm in verse 6-7(Ps 22:7[6]), (I don’t think Jesus would refer to himself as a worm, who looked to God for rescue. The psalmist does not consider himself to be someone who can provide salvation, and he does not consider himself divine.

King David refreences empires that have always tried to conquer Israel. He describes in metaphor what he had to put up with in verses 12 through 22. His use of animals – lions, dogs, oxen, bulls/bison – to describe his enemies is a technique that is used in other psalms suchas 17 and 59.

 

[Valke2]

Valke, I am new around here, and didnt know you were Jewish(I thought everyone here was Christian). Excuse my rhetoric ,thought you were a misguided Christian that had received some questionable teaching.

anywho…Considering your religion, of course you would follow what your sages teach.

btw: Is that really what your sages say? that it is ‘lion’ and that the Psalm reflects gasping agony? Can I ask which of your sages proposed that, and where it is found among the writings of the Talmud?

Just read this post now. No problem. Obviously I’m coming at this from a different perspective then you. I’ll see if I can find references to specific sages regarding the view that the word refers to lion. But I did give other quotes where the same technique, that of omission of words, was used.

 

[Valke2]

To answer your question regarding what the sages said:

Rashi (who I’m sure you know is a biggie in the sage community):

“As though they are crushed in a lion’s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38:13): ‘like a lion, so it would break all my bones.’”

Rashi takes the ellipitcal approach, (words intentionally omitted). ALthough I side with this view, it has its obvious difficulties.Rashi applies the 22nd Psalm to the Jewish nation, giving it a prophetic national application. (as opposed to David lamenting about past abuses).

There are midrashim which compare Psalm 22 to Esther. By doing this, we learn that the general aspects of Psalm 22 can be applied to many people. We don’t say that Psalm 22 was referring to Esther. Rather we use its universal themes and apply it to individuals, as necessary.

I don’t have access to any other commentaries from specific sages right now. But after doing the obligatory web research, it seems that there is enough ambiguity on this issue to keep everyone happy (or unhappy).

 

[Eden]

So, in short, can anybody bring a cleaf proof that “caari” is not about lion-like hands?

Even if it does say lion-like hands, the passage does not negate that Christ is the Messiah. If you look at the massive amount of Old Testament prophecy fulfilled in the coming of Jesus Christ, the translation of “lion” or “pierce” becomes simply a matter of intellectual interest, but certainly not a theological crisis. What effect on Christ as the Messiah are you anticipating this passage has if it originally meant “lion”?

 

[Valke2]

John the Apostle, the most likely writer of the 4th Gospel and the book of Revelation was at the foot of the cross with Mary and the other holy women followers of Christ. Christ was not “quoting from” the psalm he was praying the psalm.

Ok. praying.

 

[Eden]

The following opinion is brought to you by the people who gave you the Torah and national revelation:

Psalms 22 depicts the individual Jew praying for an end to Israel’s exile from its land and Temple. The original Hebrew (and the better translations) attributes King David as the author (verse 1). ANd it is David’s voice that we hear in the Psalm. He describes his own pain, anguish, and longing arising from when he was hiding from his enemies. What all this means is that Jews don’t view this as messianic psalm…

But these Psalms were foreshadowing nonetheless. In fact, the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be rejected by His own people. So, it’s hardly surprising that the Jewish perspective does not recognize Psalm 22 as describing Jesus Christ’s inner most thoughts and feelings.

He refers to himself as a worm in verse 6-7(Ps 22:7[6]), (I don’t think Jesus would refer to himself as a worm,

This is describing how He is made to feel by His persecutors.

who looked to God for rescue. The psalmist does not consider himself to be someone who can provide salvation, and he does not consider himself divine.

This really needs a thread of its own. There are many sources to study what Christ meant when He cried out from the cross “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?”, for instance. Here would be a start:

members.aol.com/johnprh/forsaken.html

Or here: apocalipsis.org/difficulties/psalm22.htm

King David refreences empires that have always tried to conquer Israel. He describes in metaphor what he had to put up with in verses 12 through 22. His use of animals – lions, dogs, oxen, bulls/bison – to describe his enemies is a technique that is used in other psalms suchas 17 and 59.

This is again, something that has been written about by theologians in much more depth than I am capable of doing. You can research the parallels between Israel, the Temple, etc.

But about Psalm 22, according to this website:

“The commentaries in the Talmud, written before the onset of Christianity, clearly discuss the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and puzzle over how these would be fulfilled with the glorious setting up of the Kingdom of the Messiah. After the Church used theses prophecies to prove the claims of Christ, the Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel or some other person.”

And:

“A startling document came into my possession during my studies in Jerusalem that sheds additional light on the coming of the Messiah. Moses Maimonides, known affectionately as Rambam, was the greatest Jewish commentator and scholar of the Middle Ages. In Jewish tradition they refer to him as follows: “From Moses to Moses (Maimonides), there is no one like Moses.” In Rambam’s Mishneh Torah, a commentary of the first five books of the Bible, are some startling facts about the history and Messianic claims of Jesus Christ. This great Rabbi reveals his honest intellectual struggle to come to terms with apparent contradictions regarding the separate prophecies about the suffering Messiah and the glorified Messiah. The Mishneh Torah, composed of fourteen volumes, is the most authoritative Jewish commentary of their understanding of the Law of God as it related to Israel, the Messiah and the Temple. The final fourteenth volume, Hilchot Melachim U’Milchamoteihem (the Laws of Kings and Their Wives) is about the coming of the Messiah.”

direct.ca/trinity/reject.html

This site is very useful as a more detailed look at Old Testament prophecy fulfilled in Jesus Christ:

jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm#Psalm%2022%20-%20The%20Cucifixion%20of%20Jesus

 

[Eden]

So, in short, can anybody bring a cleaf proof that “caari” is not about lion-like hands?

I think this article by Glenn Miller is persuasive:

christian-thinktank.com/ps22cheat.html

But I have to ask again, even if we all assume for sake of argument that the passage says “lion” and not “pierced”, how does that negate Christ as Messiah?

 

[Valke2]

Trust me when I tell you that Rambam clearly and unequiviocally states that Jesus was not the Messiah and that he was not God. Even the link you provided acknowledges that Rambam concludes Jesus could not be the messiah. As to Jesus being God, I’d be interested in seeing anything that Rambam wrote about this which could even possibly be interpeted as supporting the notion that Jesus or anyone else was God in the flesh.

In his guide for the preplexed, Rambam goes to some length to state that whenever any physical attribute is ascribed to God (i.e., the hand of God, God walked… etc.) it is only a mode of convienance in order to help us conceptualize the infinite God and that God does not, had not and will not have a physical body. He felt strong enough about this that he basically wrote a whole book addressing that issue.

 

[Eden]

Trust me when I tell you that Rambam clearly and unequiviocally states that Jesus was not the Messiah and that he was not God. Even the link you provided acknowledges that Rambam concludes Jesus could not be the messiah. As to Jesus being God, I’d be interested in seeing anything that Rambam wrote about this which could even possibly be interpeted as supporting the notion that Jesus or anyone else was God in the flesh.

In his guide for the preplexed, Rambam goes to some length to state that whenever any physical attribute is ascribed to God (i.e., the hand of God, God walked… etc.) it is only a mode of convienance in order to help us conceptualize the infinite God and that God does not, had not and will not have a physical body. He felt strong enough about this that he basically wrote a whole book addressing that issue.

So, how do you reconcile the separate prophecies about the suffering Messiah and the glorified Messiah? Which passages prophecy the Messiah and how do you believe he will manifest? I’m not asking for references to other scholars. I’m interested in your personal understanding of which passages are prophecies in the Old Testament and who the Messiah will be.

 

[Valke2]

So, how do you reconcile the separate prophecies about the suffering Messiah and the glorified Messiah? Which passages prophecy the Messiah and how do you believe he will manifest? I’m not asking for references to other scholars. I’m interested in your personal understanding of which passages are prophecies in the Old Testament and who the Messiah will be.

Are you talking about the Messiah ben Joseph and the Messiah ben David?

For openers, there is virtually nothing in the five books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, etc.) that deal with messianic prophecy. Mostly we look to prophets and Talmud for discussions on the Messiah. Personally, I don’t look to any of the psalms for prophectic content. I believe the psalms were written by men to express various emotional/mental states to God. It is our outcry to God and as such, I view the Psalms not as being divinely inspired so much as men being inspired to call out to God.

I’ll start a new thread called “What Jews Look for in a Messiah”
in the non-catholic area.

 

[Eden]

I’ll start a new thread called “What Jews Look for in a Messiah”
in the non-catholic area.

Thanks. I’m interested in learning more.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Finally, the verse should be read "like a lion they are gnawing at my hands and my feet. Yes, the words “they are gnawing” are absent. But this was and is a common literary technique when describing pain/agony. A person in pain does not use complete sentences to describe their pain. And neither did the Psalmist. The same thing occurs in verse 1: “Far from helping me…the words of my roaring.”

This is just my opinion but I dont see the evidence for such a claim. If those words are truly absent then to say they are warranted would require evidence from context. However as I read over that Psalm there didnt appear to be any “not using complete sentences due to pain”, infact each verse describing pain around the verse in question appears complete and coherent.
A second observation I made was the mentioning of animals in the Psalm:12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
As far as I could tell the three animals mentioned were each referenced twice. In the case of the lions the danger of the lion’s mouth is clearly stated in v13 and in v21. (I dont know if Im pushing it here but the “pierced” could actually correspond to the “sword” in v20) The words “like a lion” by themself simply dont make sense, and adding stuff like “they are gnawing at” is simply unwarranted.

Psalm 22 is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in two places. In the more important place, it is not legible and is really of no help. (I say more important because it is earlier in time).

IT was found in Nahal Hever and is dated between 70 CE and 135 CE. So it does not predate the Masoretic text, which had already been established.

** The scroll uses the word “Kaaru”. Had it used Karu, then it clearly would have meant “they dig”. Had it used Kaari, then it clearly would have meant “like a lion.” Unforunately, it used Kaaru. Not so clear.**

This is divine comedy if I have ever seen it, it all comes down to an “a” or an “i”…
…Im not that great of a speller but Im sure I would have caught a double “a” spelling error where as Im not so great at endings of words, I would more likely have made the error of mistaking a “u” for an “i” in the ending…
…where is the spell-check when we need it…