Playing Devils Advocate e3: The problem of natural suffering

[Richca]

You are confusing moral evil with natural evil:

Whether its moral or physical evil, nothing escapes the order and plan of Divine Providence. Jesus said “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.” Secondary causes, even though they be defective, only act in virtue of the First Cause (CCC #308). St Augustine said “Nothing is done unless the Almighty wills it to be done, either by permitting it, or by actually doing it.”

God permits evil because He knows how to derive good from it. The CCC (#311) quotes St Augustine to the effect " For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. "

Thus, when Jesus was asked ““Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.” (John 9: 2-3).

 

[DanAl]

There is empirical necessity in a physical universe. Omnipotence does not entail inconsistency. Even David Hume conceded that physical evil is inevitable where there are natural laws. .

I am not denying there’s a sort of necessity in the world. Bu the universe is contingent and could be different.

You are assuming God could achieve his purposes in other ways. How could all dysteleological coincidences be prevented?

Of course I am assuming God could achieve his purposes in other ways, if God is omnipotent and something is logically possible, God can do it. I resist the notion of dysteological coincidences, the world is not purposeless, God through his providence achievesh his ends through efficient causality. This has nothing to do with immanent telos, which I believe is a fiction in this universe.

God has not promised us a life without suffering. On the contrary Jesus has told us to take up our cross and follow Him…

I agree.

 

[tonyrey]

Whether its moral or physical evil, nothing escapes the order and plan of Divine Providence. Jesus said “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.” Secondary causes, even though they be defective, only act in virtue of the First Cause (CCC #308). St Augustine said “Nothing is done unless the Almighty wills it to be done, either by permitting it, or by actually doing it.”

God permits evil because He knows how to derive good from it. The CCC (#311) quotes St Augustine to the effect " For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. "

I agree. God is not directly responsible for all the natural evil in the world:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the **limitations **proper to creatures…

Thus, when Jesus was asked ““Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.” (John 9: 2-3).

Not all blindness is cured by a miracle. Nor is it due to sin - except when deliberately inflicted by a person - but to natural causes.

 

[tonyrey]

I am not denying there’s a sort of necessity in the world. But the universe is contingent and could be different.

The universe could be different but there would still be defects and misfortunes. Every physical advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. In other words there is no such thing as a free life. There is always a price to pay.

Of course I am assuming God could achieve his purposes in other ways, if God is omnipotent and something is logically possible, God can do it. I resist the notion of dysteleological coincidences, the world is not purposeless, God through his providence achieves his ends through efficient causality. This has nothing to do with immanent telos, which I believe is a fiction in this universe.

The world is fundamentally purposeful in supporting life but accidents occur for which no one is responsible because people sometimes happen to be in the “wrong” place at the “wrong” time. Such chance events are undoubtedly dystelelogical but they are permitted, not willed, by God. The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

 

[DanAl]

The universe could be different but there would still be defects and misfortunes. Every physical advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. In other words there is no such thing as a free life. There is always a price to pay.

Like in heaven? It is possible for God to stop suffering since he’s omnipotent, isn’t God he going to make a new world after the final judgement where the blessed will not suffer?

The world is fundamentally purposeful in supporting life but accidents occur for which no one is responsible because people sometimes happen to be in the “wrong” place at the “wrong” time. Such chance events are undoubtedly dystelelogical but they are permitted, not willed, by God. The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

God counts every hair in your head, there’s no such thing (purposeless) chance in our world since God sustains everything and must be willed by him. I see no meaningful diferrence between allowing and willing physical evil. Everything is willed by God even when allowing us to sin, .

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.”

 

[tonyrey]

Every physical advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. In other words there is no such thing as a free life. There is always a price to pay.

I used the word “physical” because the topic is **natural **suffering.

The world is fundamentally purposeful in supporting life but accidents occur for which no one is responsible because people sometimes happen to be in the “wrong” place at the “wrong” time. Such chance events are undoubtedly dystelelogical but they are permitted, not willed, by God. The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

God counts every hair in your head, there’s no such thing (purposeless) chance in our world since God sustains everything and must be willed by him.

That was Calvin’s mistake. Suffering is** permitted** by God but not willed - as even the sceptic David Hume conceded. Coincidences are an intrinsic feature of any orderly system. A perfect world is a fantasy:

I see no meaningful diferrence between allowing and willing physical evil. Everything is willed by God even when allowing us to sin, .

God does not will our sins - which are caused by us - nor does He will every disease, disaster or deformity - which are caused by natural events.

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.”

God does not literally create disaster. If He did He would be a monster! He permits disasters to occur because misfortunes are inevitable in an immensely complex universe.The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

 

[Linux]

The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

Why is it absurd? If a man in and of himself has no value apart from the value God gives him, then it seems arbitrary that God should judge man for the condition that God creates and man is born into. Why would a loving God see it as a matter of deserving or undeserving when a man has no possibility of deserving anything in the first place. It would seem meaningless to judge the existence of man by that criteria since he doesn’t enter into it in the first place. Man is always undeserving no matter what, so why not just give him everything?

 

[tonyrey]

The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

Our value stems from our nature. God does not confer it arbitrarily.

Why would a loving God see it as a matter of deserving or undeserving when a man has no possibility of deserving anything in the first place.

God’s love is not inconsistent. The creation of a person confers responsibility for that person’s well-being - as far as that is possible in a physical world with independent persons. We deserved nothing before we were born because we didn’t exist! But the gift of life presupposes opportunities to develop and fulfil our potential. Otherwise there would be no point in creating us…

 

[Richca]

God does not literally create disaster. If He did He would be a monster! He permits disasters to occur because misfortunes are inevitable in an immensely complex universe.The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

Hi tonyrey,

The scripture passage you are referring to says otherwise. “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7).

Further “Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not done?” (Amos 3:6).

And “It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand no one can deliver” (Deuteronomy 32:39).

Further " Good and evil, life and death, poverty and riches—all are from the LORD" (Sirach 11:14)

God’s will is the cause of things says St Thomas Aquinas. And St Augustine says that “nothing is done, unless the Almighty wills it to be done, either by permitting it, or by actually doing it.”

The Psalmist tells us “Whatever the LORD desires he does in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all the depths. It is he who raises storm clouds from the end of the earth,
makes lightning for the rain, and brings forth wind from his storehouse.” (Psalm 135: 6-7)

Whatever God does will or permit to happen in the world is in accord with His Infinite Wisdom as the Psalmist says “How varied are your works, LORD! In wisdom you have made them all” (Psalm 104: 24) and it is for the sanctification and salvation of souls.

 

[tonyrey]

God does not literally create disaster. If He did He would be a monster! He permits disasters to occur because misfortunes are inevitable in an immensely complex universe.The element of sacrifice is the price we pay for being alive. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing.

Do you believe every statement in the Old Testament is literally true? God is the Ultimate Cause of everything but that is a far cry from being the immediate cause - and directly responsible.

God’s will is the cause of things says St Thomas Aquinas. And St Augustine says that “nothing is done, unless the Almighty wills it to be done, either by permitting it, or by actually doing it.”

“permitting” gives the game away!

The Psalmist tells us “Whatever the LORD desires he does in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all the depths. It is he who raises storm clouds from the end of the earth,
makes lightning for the rain, and brings forth wind from his storehouse.” (Psalm 135: 6-7)

Whatever God does will or permit to happen in the world is in accord with His Infinite Wisdom as the Psalmist says “How varied are your works, LORD! In wisdom you have made them all” (Psalm 104: 24) and it is for the sanctification and salvation of souls.

“or permit” are the key words…

 

[Richca]

Do you believe every statement in the Old Testament is literally true?

The passages of Sacred Scripture I quoted in my previous post are literally true if we understand them in the context of Divine Providence. This is how the Church understands them as well as the saints, the Fathers, and the doctors of the Church. The Sacred Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit who is Truth and in the passages of Sacred Scripture I quoted He is teaching us the truth of Divine Providence in which nothing occurs in the world outside of the Divine Will. As the CCC teaches, God is the Lord of His creation and He has absolute sovereinty over it. His Providence extends over the minutest details to the great events of the world. Nothing happens by chance in the world as St Thomas Aquinas says quoting St Augustine in his Summa Theologica. Events may appear to happen by chance to us but nothing can escape the order of the Universal and First Cause God.

God is the Ultimate

 

[tonyrey]

The passages of Sacred Scripture I quoted in my previous post are literally true if we understand them in the context of Divine Providence. This is how the Church understands them as well as the saints, the Fathers, and the doctors of the Church. The Sacred Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit who is Truth and in the passages of Sacred Scripture I quoted He is teaching us the truth of Divine Providence in which nothing occurs in the world outside of the Divine Will. As the CCC teaches, God is the Lord of His creation and He has absolute sovereinty over it. His Providence extends over the minutest details to the great events of the world. Nothing happens by chance in the world as St Thomas Aquinas says quoting St Augustine in his Summa Theologica. Events may appear to happen by chance to us but nothing can escape the order of the Universal and First Cause God.

 

[Richca]

The Catechism puts it in a nutshell:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures…

 

[tonyrey]

*The Catechism puts it in a nutshell:

God permits unfortunate **coincidences **within the framework of order and Design.

Secondly, I think you left out the most important part of the sentence you quote from catechism which ends with " and above all to the question of moral evil." Suffering and bodily defects are the result of the fall of our first parents as well as the personal sins of all human beings since Adam and Eve.

The Catechism does not state that all suffering is caused by the Fall. If that were the case it would not refer to the limitations proper to creatures.

Absolute sovereig

nty does not entail **direct **control of every event.
“How could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?” (Wisdom 11:25)

“Indeed, she spans the world from end to end mightily and governs all things well.” (Wisdom 8:1).

(CCC #303) The witness of Scripture is unanimous that the solicitude of divine providence is concrete and immediate; God cares for all, from the least things to the great events of the world and its history. The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events."

(CCC #308) The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through **secondary **causes;"

“secondary” is the key word. Absolute sovereignty does not necessitate **direct **control of every event.

“permits” is the key word. It is not the same as “causes” or “commands”.

We can’t automatically assign God’s will of permission to all natural disasters or calamities. We can find in Holy Scripture where God caused natural disasters such as the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., or threatened to cause them.

“For then the anger of the LORD will flare up against you and he will close up the heavens, so that no rain will fall, and the soil will not yield its crops, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you.” (Deuteronomy 11:17)

But if the LORD makes a chasm, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them with all belonging to them, and they go down alive to Sheol,* then you will know that these men have spurned the LORD.” No sooner had he finished saying all this than the ground beneath them split open, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their families and all of Korah’s people* with all their possessions." (Numbers 16:30-32).

We could cite many other instances recorded in the Bible. Nature is in the hand of God as the Psalmist says “Whatever the LORD desires he does in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the depths. It is he who raises storm clouds from the end of the earth,
makes lightning for the rain, and brings forth wind from his storehouse.” (Psalm 135: 6-7)

The loving Father revealed to us by Jesus is not the wrathful, vengeful Yahweh of the Old Testament. He quoted Hosea “I want mercy not sacrifice” and told us to say “Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us”.

By early post-biblical times the name of Yahweh had ceased to be pronounced. In modern Judaism it is replaced with the word Adonai, meaning Lord, and is understood to be God’s proper name and to denote his mercy.

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Genesis is allegorical - unless one is a Creationist who rejects evolution (which is recognised by the Church)

This assertion is simply contrary to the Catholic faith and the Holy Spirit.

Only Fundamentalists believe that the entire book of Genesis is literally true. You need to justify your false assertion that my statement is contrary to the Catholic faith and the Holy Spirit with at least one citation. Otherwise you should retract it with an apology because it is contrary to the forum conduct rules.