Please, Catholics, tell me you disagree with the Pope on this!

[deb1]

Romans 2: 14-15 For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having the law are a law unto themselves. 15 Which show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the means while accusing or else excusing one another.

 

[Della]

smelton:

John 14:6 - “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Seems clear to me.

And how did Jesus make that possible for every person who every lived, before and after Jesus’ time on earth? Through his redemptive act on the cross. That is how we were redeemed. How we are saved is more complex, but finally, it is up to God who will be saved and who won’t, which is why Jesus said that many will say, “Lord, Lord!,” but the Lord will say, “Depart from me you DOERS of EVIL.”

 

[sandusky]

Romans 1:18-20

*18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse*.

 

[rwoehmke]

smelton:

John 14:6 - “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Seems clear to me.

Absolutely clear! What Benedict XVI is saying is that it is not necessary to believe in Jesus the Christ or to belong formally to the Roman Catholic or even a Christian Church. To be saved through Jesus Christ it is only necessary for those who are invincably ignorant to seek goals and live a lifestyle in keeping with the Kingdom that Jesus preached. Even those outside are saved through Jesus Christ for there is no other way.

This type of consternation by good Catholics kind of reminds me of how in Catholic grade school we envied the “Publickers” because they could pull all kinds of stunts and not have to go to confession. The trickiness of gaining their salvation under such circumstances never even crossed our minds. They seemed to have a “freedom” we did not have and we were envious. We Catholics need to count our blessings and give praise to God that he can save even those who to us might appear lost.

 

[Lillith]

smelton:

I would agree that Paul discusses this issue in Romans. At the same time, we live in a different world than Paul. With today’s technology I would think a bunch of people have more access to the Gospel (Good News) than did back then. I’m not saying everyone has heard of Jesus today but for the Pope to come out and make that claim is a little far reaching for me, of course I’m protestant so that could be the reason.

There are more than you might think…China for instance…and all those Chinamen…which I heard that if you stacked them head to toe one could reach the moon and back…indigenous people who instinctively worship a tree…(I believe that Love of God is instinct)

Myself for example…through no fault of my own I was raised without Religion…a child of athiests…

No…our work is not done!

 

[sententia]

I think the last sentance really helps clarify, as well,

The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord “that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world.”

Zenit!

 

[Brendan]

Melchior:

He is saying all that is required for salvation is a commitment to peace and the good of the community. How is that even Christian? Thank God it is only and opinion and not ex cathedra. But it’s the pope for crying out loud!

Mel

Really, it looks like what he said was

With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ

That seems to be a far cry from what you are implying.

 

[Ignatius]

smelton:

John 14:6 - “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Seems clear to me.

Is that the only vers in Scripture to deal with salvation? If not, please cite all of the others and let’s see if we can make some sense of what the pope said.

 

[Redbandito]

Mijoy2:

This is often quoted as meaning one must believe in Jesus to get to heaven. But it doesn’t say that.

Ultimately, it does mean that. To be in Heaven, I will have to know God as Trinity. However, that does not mean that I must know God as Trinity on this Earth. So, you are right in that way.

The verse referred to specifically refers to the fact that it is through Christ’s life, death, and resurrection; and through Christ’s mediation to the Father that any of can come to Him.

 

[deb1]

Melchior:

Yeah but if it is hard for those who believe the Gospel to be saved why does it seem to be easy for those who haven’t. Who without the teachings of scripture, could ever truly live up to that standard anyway? Who has a pure heart? It seems so misleading to give hope to unbelievers and it sends a message to every Buddhist and Muslim that they are okay if they are really really good people. This is not the Gospel message!

Mel

I think that if a person knows enough about Christ to wonder if they need to accept him, then they know enough to reject him. So, the above scenario would not be an example of invincible ignorance.

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior:

This is new: “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience …”

Where was that ever taught in scripture or Tradition?

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”
Matt 5:9

 

[Melchior]

Sherlock:

I don’t see that message being sent. I really don’t think you’re thinking this one through. The desire on your part to think the worst is not charitable.

It has nothing to do with charity. Charity (love) would be sharing the gospel with the lost not excusing them from it.

Mel

 

[deb1]

Romans 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

so how in your opinon does this verse coincide with Romans 2 14-15? They were, after all, written by the same author in the same letter, so they must not be contradicting one another.

Romans 2: 14-15 For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having the law are a law unto themselves. 15 Which show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the means while accusing or else excusing one another.

 

[Redbandito]

Romans 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Sandusky, throwing around Bible verses without defining their meaning does no good. We have all read Romans. The question is, what does that mean. If you are truly open-minded than you will see that nobody in here “disagrees” with that Scripture. You simply don’t understand what we are saying, nor I would say, what that verse is saying.

 

[rwoehmke]

I think there is a false assumption here in that some tend to understand that anyone who has heard of Jesus Christ or heard or read His gospel is somehow no longer invincably ignorant. One must hear and believe and then reject Jesus and his church in order to be outside the pale. To not believe leaves one unconvinced or invincably ignorant. Why do we begrudge God’s infinite mercy for those who are good people, but may not believe as we do?

 

[Melchior]

b_justb:

It is clear for sure. What isn’t said is: No one comes to the Father except he that recognize me as Lord and Savior by the English derivative of my name only.

If it’s by Grace alone, why not leave that Grace to God alone.

Every heard of the great commission?

Mel

 

[Della]

Redbandito:

Sandusky, throwing around Bible verses without defining their meaning does not good. We have all read Romans. The question is, what does that mean. If you are truly open-minded than you will see that nobody in here “disagrees” with that Scripture. You simply don’t understand what we are saying, nor I would say, what that verse is saying.

So, how is Sandusky wrong? It seems to go along perfectly with what Peter said when he saw the faith of Cornelius–that God honors those who honor him no matter who they are. This in no way negates our need of the Savior, rather it says that the Savior will save whom he pleases while many a self-satisfied “Christian” (not talking about you dear Redbandito) will find himself out in the dark.

 

[Mijoy2]

Redbandito:

Ultimately, it does mean that. To be in Heaven, I will have to know God as Trinity. However, that does not mean that I must know God as Trinity on this Earth. So, you are right in that way.

The verse referred to specifically refers to the fact that it is through Christ’s life, death, and resurrection; and through Christ’s mediation to the Father that any of can come to Him.

Precisely the way I understand it.

 

[Libero]

Good, I am glad to here this, to an extent it addresses the “why do good people go to hell” issue.

 

[Melchior]

Della:

And how did Jesus make that possible for every person who every lived, before and after Jesus’ time on earth? Through his redemptive act on the cross. That is how we were redeemed. How we are saved is more complex, but finally, it is up to God who will be saved and who won’t, which is why Jesus said that many will say, “Lord, Lord!,” but the Lord will say, “Depart from me you DOERS of EVIL.”

Scripture is abundantly clear that one must have faith in Him and the one who has heard the Gospel (most everyone in this day and age) is reasonsibel to believe it. There is nothing complicated about “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved”. This is foundational. That is why your church uesed to send out missionaries - they had a sense of urngency to reach those who have not heard out of concern for their souls.

Now it just seems like well Christ atoned for everyone and anyone can come to Christ by being really really nice to people. It seems as if the focus has shifted from “Gte the message out” to “I’m okay your okay”.