Please clarify, I heard this on EWTN

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Fidelis:
I think that theory is spot-on! We are apologizing or standing there shamed-faced when we should be using the opportunity to teach the Faith.
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I don’t think anyone should feel forced to change words by outsiders with no investment in the issues at hand, but on the other hand, over times words do change meaning and gain or lose conotations, or simply become outdated altogether.

Updating language to fit a people’s and culture’s understanding and common use of the language is not the same as “caving” or selling out.

I suspect it might be confusing, even to Catholics to hear on the one hand that Mary is not worshipped nor divine, and then hear someplace else (but still a Catholic source) that she is.

anyway, it is not my personal issue. I appreciate everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut here.

thanks for bringing me up to speed.

cheddar
 
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axolotl:
But this man did appear to be from England. They address their judges there as your worship! Although that meaning is obsolete in our neck of the woods, the use of language may be quite different where he comes from.
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There are quite enough differences for one to wonder, “What do those people in the US mean ?” 🙂​

I agree with VociMike whole-heartedly - it is extremely irritating to hear some unwise person use that kind of language about her.

IMHO, I think we Catholics are our own worst enemies on this matter: Jesus Christ is the Reason for and the Meaning of Christianity - not her. It’s a thousand pities that Catholicism seems to be narrowed down to its distinctives - to the things that divide, to the exclusion of what is common to Catholics and others. It’s insane to try to understand her place in Christianity while ignoring the Christ Who is the very Reason for and Purpose of her existence. It’s as mad as trying to grow roses without planting the seed of them in a flower-bed: roses do not grow out of thin air; and neither does insight into the mysteries of the Faith. She does not, she cannot, be made sense of in isolation.

Something said in de Montfort’s True Devotion - paragraph six, IIRC - is helpful here: “…in comparison with God, she is less than an atom”. This is a position in accord with the Bible, which has a lot to say about the nothingness of man and the Greatness of God. IMHO, a lot of good might come if there were more emphasis on her nothingness by nature, rather than on what she has been made into (which is, after all, wholly the work of God’s grace. She is what she is, not by any desert of hers at all, but purely because God was pleased to make of her what He has, for the Glory of His Son. ##
 
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whosebob:
For example in the first chapter of TAN’s edition of the 19th Century English-translation of St. Louis de Monfort’s “True Devotion to Mary,” the author refers to Mary as “divine.” But the meaning is not “Divine” with a capital “D,” as in the Divine Nature of the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity. Rather, the meaning should understood to be “most holy” or “of the greatest sanctity,” and English-speaking Catholics of that era would have understood this to be the case.
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I have to agree with whosebob, this sounds like the most logical explanation. It really is a matter of semantics and we should remember that the Magisterium is the teaching authority for Catholics. No “one” speaker, guest or theologian can change Catholic doctrine and probably wouldn’t on shows such as EWTN.

So take a deep breath, your visceral response was probably a little bit of hypersensitivity, but we’ve all been there. I would seriously consider investing in the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) and in the future, you’ll have the Truth at your fingertips.

God bless you,
 
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cheddarsox:
I don’t think anyone should feel forced to change words by outsiders with no investment in the issues at hand, but on the other hand, over times words do change meaning and gain or lose conotations, or simply become outdated altogether.
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My own sense is that the battle is “lost” regarding the word “worship”, but not regarding the word “pray”. That is, Catholics have accepted the Protestant notion that “worship” today is to be applied only to God. We seem to be perfectly happy to use “veneration” with regard to Mary (or “hyperdulia” if we’re being fancy).

“Pray”, OTOH, has not been yielded to Protestant definition restrictions, and I don’t see any move to so yield. Doggone it, “pray” has two different meanings, and we know perfectly well what they are and which meaning we mean on which occasion.
 
IMHO, I think we Catholics are our own worst enemies on this matter: Jesus Christ is the Reason for and the Meaning of Christianity - not her. It’s a thousand pities that Catholicism seems to be narrowed down to its distinctives - to the things that divide, to the exclusion of what is common to Catholics and others. It’s insane to try to understand her place in Christianity while ignoring the Christ Who is the very Reason for and Purpose of her existence.
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I think the Council Fathers would disagree. Why did we need to understand Mary as the “theotokos” in order to settle the Christological heresy of Nestorianism? The Church has never ignored Christ-Christ has always been the center of the Church’s Sacred Liturgy, Theology, Doctrine and Dogma. We need not dumb things down and start to ignore Mary because some folks can’t figure out how important she is and how her life and possition only help to strengthen our faith in Christ, her Divine Son.

What is common to both the Catholic and protestant world is held in its fullness in the Catholic Church. If we unduly stress the similarities in an effort to foster the “why can’t we just all get along” idea, then we risk undermining the importance and necessity of the Church and its “distinctive beliefs” in the salvation of everyone that will be saved.
 
VociMike said:
“Pray”, OTOH, has not been yielded to Protestant definition restrictions, and I don’t see any move to so yield. Doggone it, “pray” has two different meanings, and we know perfectly well what they are and which meaning we mean on which occasion.
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On the contrary, I see it on this very forum whenever the subject of praying to Mary comes up. There are those who are quick to say, “We don’t pray to Mary, we ask for her intercession.” The fact is, we do pray to her in the sense that prayer does mean an earnest entreaty that can be applied even to our fellows here on earth. Even though it takes a little more trouble to do so, it is more constructive, IMHO, to explain the real meaning of the word, than contribute to the further dumbing down of language.
 
Hi, this catholic.com article explains the terms latria, dulia and hyperdulia, which all used to be lumped under the same word, “worship”.
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

These days, using the word “worship” for anyone else in Heaven who is not God can scandalize brethren, whether we mean to or not, since they may only understand “worship” in the latria sense–the sense of adoration reserved for God only. There’s no use in allowing scandal to happen.

We’d be technically correct, BUT:

Since Paul taught about the possibility of causing scandal by giving people the false impression, even if you are not doing anything wrong, I think I’d refrain from using the word “worship” even though it’s technically correct, unless you are in a situation where you’re permitted to clear up any misunderstanding.

Lillith, I heard that about angels too, but I have since reformed my understanding. I heard what you heard, in grade school. I wonder where my teacher (a nun) got it from. But since then, I’ve learned that angels do have free will (that is in the Catechism), and have a superior intelligence to man. And I doubt that they “envy”.
 
I’m quite sure the use of “worship” regarding Mary from that english man had meant “respect and veneration,” I do believe if it meant otherwise, such as a goddess then the Catholic Church would have condemed it. Because it’s Idoltry.
 
The Catholic:
I’m quite sure the use of “worship” regarding Mary from that english man had meant “respect and veneration,” I do believe if it meant otherwise, such as a goddess then the Catholic Church would have condemed it. Because it’s Idoltry.
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Well said I though and concisely so.🙂 Nevertheless ‘worship’ in our common understanding nowadays is something akin to adoration and the word I think anyway should only be used in relation to God. I venerate and honour Mary as the mother of Jesus but neither worship nor adore her…and if I did, The Church would condemn me because as you pointed out The Catholic, it is idolatory.
To state that I worship Mary is to convey a meaning that is not at all intended in our common understanding of the word ‘worship’ at least nowadays. To use the word in relationship to Our Lady may well give a very wrong impression to non Catholics that Catholics do worship and adore Mary which is completely false.

Send regards…Barb:)
 
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BarbaraTherese:
Well said I though and concisely so.🙂 Nevertheless ‘worship’ in our common understanding nowadays is something akin to adoration and the word I think anyway should only be used in relation to God.
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Only in America. In England it’s still used in the sense of ‘respect and veneration’. Also, people always called things divine a lot too (even though they weren’t talking of divine as in the sense of God). Words change over time, so if you want to get the proper perspective on something, you need to go to official church documents. Another added benefit of having Latin as the official language of the Church. Using a so called ‘dead’ language, our doctrines and dogmas will remain the same and not become obfuscated by the changing vernacular languages.
 
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VociMike:
I really wish Catholics wouldn’t say stuff like this! I have defended the Church’s teachings on Mary many times, but I sure won’t and can’t defend this kind of loose, inflammatory language.

It is true that one of the older meanings of “worship” is simply to venerate or give respect. Using that older meaning it is right to say that we worship Mary, but the older meaning has become obsolete.
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dictionary.com:
wor·ship cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

    1. *]
      • The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
        *]The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
        *]Ardent devotion; adoration.
        *]often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

        v. wor·shiped, or wor·shipped wor·ship·ing, or wor·ship·ping **wor·ships **or wor·ships

        v. tr.

        1. *]To honor and love as a deity.
          *]To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.

          v. intr.

          1. *]To participate in religious rites of worship.
            *]To perform an act of worship.

            [Middle English worshipe, *worthiness, honor
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        1. , from Old English weorthscipe : weorth, worth; see worth1 + -scipe, -ship.]
          worhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifship·er or worhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifship·per n.

          taken from dictionary.com…a secular site 🙂
 
Semper Fi:
Only in America. In England it’s still used in the sense of ‘respect and veneration’. Also, people always called things divine a lot too (even though they weren’t talking of divine as in the sense of God). Words change over time, so if you want to get the proper perspective on something, you need to go to official church documents. Another added benefit of having Latin as the official language of the Church. Using a so called ‘dead’ language, our doctrines and dogmas will remain the same and not become obfuscated by the changing vernacular languages.
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Hi there Semper Fi.
In the main I agree with your comments. I however am an Australian living in South Australia and here in Aust. the word ‘worship’ is interchangeable with ‘adoration’…but I take your point that words have different meanings in different countries, though the same word used. There is much non Catholic confusion at least here in Australia as to what the Catholic attitude to Our Lady actually is and here certainly the words ‘respect’ and ‘honour’ are more illustrative of our actual attitude to her. I do try to convey to confused non Catholics that we honour and respect Our Lady, Mary, as the mother of Jesus whom He loved, who raised him probably largely on her own after the death of St. Joseph and who stayed by the side of Jesus right up to his crucifixion and was also amongst the Apostles gathered at Pentecost. As such alone she is worthy of our respect and honour. I try to convey that we do honour and respect the Apostles and then why not Mary the mother of Jesus who stayed faithful to him all his life and hers.
I am unsure which nationality the originator of this thread, Cheddar, may be, though I tend to think American and if so, the word ‘worship’ in connection with Mary was an ill advised word to use. I may well be incorrect, but I suspect that EWTN is an American broadcasting station.

Send regards - Barb:)
 
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BarbaraTherese:
I may well be incorrect, but I suspect that EWTN is an American broadcasting station.
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EWTN is in fact broadcast worldwide, it is a loose network of affiliates basically. Check it out, if you have broadband you can watch it on the Internet, www.ewtn.com or if you’ve got dialup you can listen to the radio station. Most of the stations that broadcast EWTN radio or television are American, and sometimes it will use older material such as what cheddar heard from the Englishman. He is English (the person cheddar was talking about), so I am not sure if he even intented or thought about the possible problems of using the word ‘worship’ in the way that he did. Just go read some of St Louis de Montfort’s ‘true deovotion to Mary’. I have had protestant friends use his writings to somehow ‘prove’ that we Catholics worship Mary as we worship God. He uses worship and divine a lot, and they forget that this was written ~500 years ago and was probably translated back when ‘worship’ still meant respect and veneration.
 
Semper Fi:
EWTN is in fact broadcast worldwide, it is a loose network of affiliates basically. Check it out, if you have broadband you can watch it on the Internet, www.ewtn.com or if you’ve got dialup you can listen to the radio station. Most of the stations that broadcast EWTN radio or television are American, and sometimes it will use older material such as what cheddar heard from the Englishman. He is English (the person cheddar was talking about), so I am not sure if he even intented or thought about the possible problems of using the word ‘worship’ in the way that he did. Just go read some of St Louis de Montfort’s ‘true deovotion to Mary’. I have had protestant friends use his writings to somehow ‘prove’ that we Catholics worship Mary as we worship God. He uses worship and divine a lot, and they forget that this was written ~500 years ago and was probably translated back when ‘worship’ still meant respect and veneration.
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Hello Semper Fi.🙂 …and thank you for the above information. I have dial up and tho not very experienced with computers, I will make enquiries of friends who are and hope to listen to EWTN now and then. Thank you!

Your point that the spiritual classical work of St. Louis de Montfort (whom I have read but quite a long time ago) needs to be translated into our modern understanding including his use of words is a well taken point and a very valid one and not only where St. Louis de Montfort is concerned.
Here in Australia there seems to be much confusion on the part of non Catholics as to our true position re Mary and from feedback from those that I have spoken to, they have been unable to discern what our true position is from talking about it with Catholics…of course this is a generalization in which there may be plenty of exceptions hence not at all applicable to every single case.
But in light of the above, I think this thread and a discussion on our position is an excellent point to raise and educational on a point important to evangelization and talking with non Catholics.

Send regards from another very hot day in South Australia…Barb:)
 
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