Please compare the difficulty of the MD with the LotH

  • Thread starter Thread starter Luigi_Daniele
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Luigi_Daniele

Guest
MD=Monastic Diurnal

LotH=Liturgy of the Hours

I am about to take the dive into the MD, and I’m wondering what I am getting into.

I have seen places that have pages and pages of instructions and an Ordo, and others that have a few pages of instructions and say that you really don’t even need an Ordo.

Over to you 🙂
 
If you follow the pre-Vatican II rubrics for the MD it will be more difficult than the LOTH. More feasts, more degrees for feasts, more complex liturgical year (e.g. Septuagesima)

If you follow the current rubrics, the LOTH and MD are equivalent other than the number and layout of the psalms.

What makes or breaks for me, the LOTH whether monastic or not, is the convenience of the books used, that is their layout, ease of use and minimizing of page flipping. The new Monastic antiphonary, for example, is a bear to use; but the new Roman antiphonary (the first volume which just appeared anyway), made by the same monks, was designed with choir use in mind and is very well laid out.
 
OraLabora said:
If you follow the pre-Vatican II rubrics for the MD it will be more difficult than the LOTH. More feasts, more degrees for feasts, more complex liturgical year (e.g. Septuagesima)

If you follow the current rubrics, the LOTH and MD are equivalent other than the number and layout of the psalms.

What makes or breaks for me, the LOTH whether monastic or not, is the convenience of the books used, that is their layout, ease of use and minimizing of page flipping. The new Monastic antiphonary, for example, is a bear to use; but the new Roman antiphonary (the first volume which just appeared anyway), made by the same monks, was designed with choir use in mind and is very well laid out.
Click to expand...
Patience :o

How would I use the MD with the currect rubrics? Use the St Joseph’s Guide for the Saints/Feasts.etc and just pray the normal day’s MD (but with the flipping for specials days, obviously–as above). Right, amico mio?
 
(cont.)

Would you mind giving a short how-to about praying the MD with the current rubrics?
I am intrigued. Don’t do it if it is too much trouble, though, as I will probably use the original rubrics with the current saints+the original ones (as Saintswillarise seems to do)
 
I see someone voted “MD by a large margin” and someone voted “MD=LotH”.

May I ask why? 🙂
 
I voted =

I’m on the train right now, heading home from a business trip. I’ll have a look at my MD on the weekend. It’s in French though… might be a different layout from yours.

In short though I’d just use the LOTH but substitute the psalmody from the MD. Feasts (or memorials with festive psalms), I would take the antiphons from the propers or commons in the MD, and the festive psalms from the MD appropriate to the common of the saint, and the rest from the LOTH. You’d then be praying it essentially as it is done in Benedictine monasteries today.
 
Thanks.

Why don’t monasteries put out an Ordo?😦

Mine supposedly does, but I have yet to receive it.😦
 
Well, my monks use the LotH:)

and 😦 , as I just blew $75 on a MD “for nothing”😦
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Thanks.

Why don’t monasteries put out an Ordo?😦

Mine supposedly does, but I have yet to receive it.😦
Click to expand...
They do. Mine e-mails it to me. They put it out at the beginning of each liturgical season, and in the long run of OT after Pentecost, every calendar season (i.e. summer, and autumn). Try and find out who puts it out in your house, and ask if possible if he can e-mail you a copy. Ours is in PDF.
Luigi_Daniele said:
How do you know? I am not doubting you, but I wonder if there is a list somewhere…
Click to expand...
Because our house belongs to the Solesmes congregation and I happen to know, and have been told by visiting monks from France, that St-Wandrille and Solesmes does so in France, and Ste-Marie-des-Deux-Montagnes outside of Montreal (women), and I have been there. Our abbey uses Schema B (entire psalter in a week but shorter than St. Benedict’s schema). But Lauds and Vespers are in Gregorian chant.

And I happen to have the Monastic Psalter (Latin-French) from Solesmes and that’s indeed how it’s done (and the psalter has Gregorian chant notation for the antiphons and responsories). BTW the Monastic Psalter also includes the night office.

I should add that I am also a director of the Gregorian Institute of Canada, and specialize in liturgy particularly for the Divine Office; I prepared the chant booklets for for the DIvine Office our colloquium last weekend for instance 😃

Don’t worry, even if your house uses the 4-vol. LOTH (probably because they have an apostolate outside the cloister such as education), your money is not wasted. With the diurnal, you’ll be much better able to understand the Rule of St. Benedict’s instructions regarding the Divine Office. And you can still use it to pray the LOTH on the monastic schema A.

Also keep in mind nothing is simple in the DIvine Office. You should see how our monks pray it. Multiple books. They draw from many sources: 1934 Solesmes antiphonary, 1934 Monastic antiphonary, current Monastic antiphonary, Liber Hymnarius (for hymns), “Documenta” to align the prayers and structure of the old Monastic office with the LOTH.

Technically they are supposed to be using the new Monastic antiphonary, but it is being phased in gradually. As many monks have been praying the same office for 40 years, you don’t just one day replace all the books!!! They need to be trained in the changes.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
They use the LotH. Which, I guess, means I just blew $70:(
Click to expand...
My advice would be not to obsess over it. You’re new at it, and I myself experimented with many schemas.

I did the Benedictine Schemas A and B, and the LOTH. I settled on the latter when an antiphonary for Gregorian chant became available. My abbey uses Benedictine schema B which meets the letter of the Rule of St. Benedict (“if you don’t like my schema, use another provided you do all 150 psalms in a week”), and I use LOTH. You’re not obligated to follow the exact schema of your abbey. LOTH is fine, MD is fine, and if you can find it in your language, Schemas B, C, and D are fine too. As an Oblate you have to adapt the Office to your needs and availability and preferences.

So experiment with the MD. At the very least you’ll get to understand the Benedictine roots of the Liturgy of the Hours.

Have fun, experimenting with the Divine Office is very educational, and for a liturgy freak like myself, great fun. A couple of Christmases ago, I was asking our oblate director about the pre-Vatican II monastic Divine Office.

When I showed up for my pre-Christmas confession with him before Mass one day, he gave me one of the best Christmas gifts I have ever received: a pre-Vatican II Monastic Breviary; slightly “used” of course, but still in great shape. When I received it I told him “wow, I’m touched, thank you so much, you’ve settled what I’ll be doing this Sunday afternoon”, to which he had a good laugh as he knows how much I love the liturgy.

As I recall it was a rainy December afternoon, and I curled up next to our wood stove with the breviary and spent a most enjoyable afternoon studying it until I dozed off in imitation of our cats 😃
 
OraLabora said:
My advice would be not to obsess over it. You’re new at it, and I myself experimented with many schemas.

I did the Benedictine Schemas A and B, and the LOTH. I settled on the latter when an antiphonary for Gregorian chant became available. My abbey uses Benedictine schema B which meets the letter of the Rule of St. Benedict (“if you don’t like my schema, use another provided you do all 150 psalms in a week”), and I use LOTH. You’re not obligated to follow the exact schema of your abbey. LOTH is fine, MD is fine, and if you can find it in your language, Schemas B, C, and D are fine too. As an Oblate you have to adapt the Office to your needs and availability and preferences.

So experiment with the MD. At the very least you’ll get to understand the Benedictine roots of the Liturgy of the Hours.

Have fun, experimenting with the Divine Office is very educational, and for a liturgy freak like myself, great fun. A couple of Christmases ago, I was asking our oblate director about the pre-Vatican II monastic Divine Office.

When I showed up for my pre-Christmas confession with him before Mass one day, he gave me one of the best Christmas gifts I have ever received: a pre-Vatican II Monastic Breviary; slightly “used” of course, but still in great shape. When I received it I told him “wow, I’m touched, thank you so much, you’ve settled what I’ll be doing this Sunday afternoon”, to which he had a good laugh as he knows how much I love the liturgy.

As I recall it was a rainy December afternoon, and I curled up next to our wood stove with the breviary and spent a most enjoyable afternoon studying it until I dozed off in imitation of our cats 😃
Click to expand...
Thanks, amico mio. You have been a great help. My MD shipped today. 🙂

I came across a Jimmy Akins post re: the MD
That being said, the older form of the divine office is not the same as the current form and, as a result–unless there is a provision out there allowing this–my understanding is that saying it according to the old form would not count as a participation in the Church’s liturgical prayer. If you want to do that, you need to say the prayer in the form that the Church presently prays.
Click to expand...
Emphasis mine.

2 points:
  1. Re the part in red: There surely must be such a provision, though. The monks at Norcia (for example) still pray Benedict’s original schema (right word?), which is basically the MD (as do monasteries here in the USA). Ergo, there must be such a provision, or they wouldn’t be doing it, right?
  2. Re the part in blue: I doubt this, given #1. What does this mean practically, though?:o
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Thanks, amico mio. You have been a great help. My MD shipped today. 🙂

I came across a Jimmy Akins post re: the MD

Emphasis mine.

2 points:
  1. Re the part in red: There surely must be such a provision, though. The monks at Norcia (for example) still pray Benedict’s original schema (right word?), which is basically the MD (as do monasteries here in the USA). Ergo, there must be such a provision, or they wouldn’t be doing it, right?
  2. Re the part in blue: I doubt this, given #1. What does this mean practically, though?:o
Click to expand...
Benedict’s original schema, now called Benedictine “Schema A”, is still fully liturgical in the places that continue to use it. I know of at least 4 abbeys that do still use it in the Solesmes Congregation.

What was changed, after Vatican II:

Some of the hymns reverted to a more traditional text (applies as well to the LOTH in Latin)
The Liturgical Year will conform to the post-Vatican II year: Advent, Christmas, OT, Lent, Eastertide, OT, instead of Advent, Christmas, Time after Epiphany, Septuagesima, Lent, Eastertide and Time after Pentecost
The readings were made to correspond to the ones in the LOTH
The prayers were made to correspond to the ones in the LOTH
The Calendar changed and instead of the complex degree of feasts, there are optional and mandatory memorials, feasts and solemnities; however the Benedictines get to keep their calendar with saints.

Here is the relevant paragraph in the General Instructions:
  1. Communities of canons, monks, nuns, and other religious who celebrate the liturgy of the hours by rule or according to their constitutions, whether with the general rite or a particular rite, in whole or in part, represent in a special way the Church at prayer. They are a fuller sign of the Church as it continuously praises God with one voice and they fulfill the duty of “working,” above all by prayer, “to build up and increase the whole Mystical Body of Christ, and for the good of the local Churches.” [101] This is especially true of those living the contemplative life.
Click to expand...
The MD will comply with the current Benedictine schema A only in the order of the psalms. So as I said earlier you could use it paired with the LOTH. You substitute the psalmody from MD instead of the psalmody from LOTH, but you take the rest from LOTH. The Office of Readings is a special case, it replaces the Night Office. To do that on the monastic schema, you’d need a nocturnale. But you’re fine just doing the day hours. After all you’re an oblate, not a monk 😉

The only thing you’ll have a problem with using the LOTH is the memorials, feasts and solemnities from the Benedictine calendar. They are not in the general Roman calendar, and there are other issues, for example although the St. Benedict appears in the Roman calendar as a memorial, for Benedictines it’s a solemnity.

Like I said the LOTH can get complicated! I once wanted to celebrate the feast of Sts Placidus and Maurus which appears on Jan. 15 in the Benedictine calendar as a memorial but with a proper office (therefore, like a feast with festive psalms and proper antiphons), but doesn’t appear in the Roman Office (LOTH). As I chant the Office, I needed my Roman antiphonary, the Monastic Antiphonary, a hymnal, a Monastic breviary for the prayers and common of monks, and it was very sporting indeed flipping back and forth with 4 books. Next time I think I’ll just say the collect for that day.

So the MD is not a waste:
  1. you can still, liturgically, pray the Benedictine Office as it is an approved office for the Benedictines;
  2. The MD, while out of date for the rest of the Office, does have the correct psalm schemas for the Benedictine Office
  3. Therefore using the MD for the Psalmody and the LOTH for the rest will allow you to join the Church in her liturgical prayer of the Divine Office.
One last caveat, in case folks who do the Monastic Office in Latin are checking into this thread: if you have an older pre-Vatican II Monastic Breviary, the psalms will be in the wrong translation, they will be the Vulgate translation whereas in the post-V II Office, the Neo Vulgate is used, and even since then there have been changes. To be “up-to-date” one needs to use one of the Post-Vatican II Solesmes books: Psalterium Monasticum, 1981, or Antiphonale Monasticum I, II, III and V, 2005-2009 (Volum IV, the night office, is supposed to come out this year)
 
OraLabora said:
Benedict’s original schema, now called Benedictine “Schema A”, is still fully liturgical in the places that continue to use it. I know of at least 4 abbeys that do still use it in the Solesmes Congregation.

What was changed, after Vatican II:

Some of the hymns reverted to a more traditional text (applies as well to the LOTH in Latin)
The Liturgical Year will conform to the post-Vatican II year: Advent, Christmas, OT, Lent, Eastertide, OT, instead of Advent, Christmas, Time after Epiphany, Septuagesima, Lent, Eastertide and Time after Pentecost
The readings were made to correspond to the ones in the LOTH
The prayers were made to correspond to the ones in the LOTH
The Calendar changed and instead of the complex degree of feasts, there are optional and mandatory memorials, feasts and solemnities; however the Benedictines get to keep their calendar with saints.

Here is the relevant paragraph in the General Instructions:

The MD will comply with the current Benedictine schema A only in the order of the psalms. So as I said earlier you could use it paired with the LOTH. You substitute the psalmody from MD instead of the psalmody from LOTH, but you take the rest from LOTH. The Office of Readings is a special case, it replaces the Night Office. To do that on the monastic schema, you’d need a nocturnale. But you’re fine just doing the day hours. After all you’re an oblate, not a monk 😉

The only thing you’ll have a problem with using the LOTH is the memorials, feasts and solemnities from the Benedictine calendar. They are not in the general Roman calendar, and there are other issues, for example although the St. Benedict appears in the Roman calendar as a memorial, for Benedictines it’s a solemnity.

Like I said the LOTH can get complicated! I once wanted to celebrate the feast of Sts Placidus and Maurus which appears on Jan. 15 in the Benedictine calendar as a memorial but with a proper office (therefore, like a feast with festive psalms and proper antiphons), but doesn’t appear in the Roman Office (LOTH). As I chant the Office, I needed my Roman antiphonary, the Monastic Antiphonary, a hymnal, a Monastic breviary for the prayers and common of monks, and it was very sporting indeed flipping back and forth with 4 books. Next time I think I’ll just say the collect for that day.

So the MD is not a waste:
  1. you can still, liturgically, pray the Benedictine Office as it is an approved office for the Benedictines;
  2. The MD, while out of date for the rest of the Office, does have the correct psalm schemas for the Benedictine Office
  3. Therefore using the MD for the Psalmody and the LOTH for the rest will allow you to join the Church in her liturgical prayer of the Divine Office.
One last caveat, in case folks who do the Monastic Office in Latin are checking into this thread: if you have an older pre-Vatican II Monastic Breviary, the psalms will be in the wrong translation, they will be the Vulgate translation whereas in the post-V II Office, the Neo Vulgate is used, and even since then there have been changes. To be “up-to-date” one needs to use one of the Post-Vatican II Solesmes books: Psalterium Monasticum, 1981, or Antiphonale Monasticum I, II, III and V, 2005-2009 (Volum IV, the night office, is supposed to come out this year)
Click to expand...
You, sir, rock. 🙂

If I choose to just pray the MD (as some oblates do), that would be OK, too, right? (Last one today, I promise :o:D )
 
One other thing to keep in mind: the older form of the Roman Office, is completely different from the Benedictine Office. The former is no longer in use (though I’m not sure if the Holy Father’s Motu Proprio included the Divine Office), whereas the Benedictine Office dating back to St. Benedict’s rule, is still legitimate and current use for Benedictine monasteries that desire to use it. Only the changes I mentioned in my last post need to be considered.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
You, sir, rock. 🙂

If I choose to just pray the MD (as some oblates do), that would be OK, too, right? (Last one today, I promise :o:D )
Click to expand...
There’s no hard and fast rule, if you do so, you’re doing it as a personal devotion and not as part of the greater body praying the Liturgy of the Hours. Both are legitimate ways, IMHO, to approach God.
 
OraLabora said:
There’s no hard and fast rule, if you do so, you’re doing it as a personal devotion and not as part of the greater body praying the Liturgy of the Hours. Both are legitimate ways, IMHO, to approach God.
Click to expand...
Thanks, amico mio 🙂

Still haven’t received it, but I become more and more intent with switching to the MD exclusively with each passing day. 🙂
 
Should point out that the psalms of the Office aside, the rest of the Office is not “out of date” - under Summorum Pontificum the 1962 calendar is a legitimate option.

If however you do want to use the new calendar or the calnedar of your monastery (most monasteries send one out with their regular oblate materials; some put them up online), it isn’t that hard to adapt the Diurnal:saintsshallarise.blogspot.com/2009/05/learning-office-part-xii-note-on.html.

As an aside, what info does the ‘St Joseph Guide’ contain that you are looking for and can’t find online?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top