Please define "Traditional Catholic"

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**What does the title of this forum mean?

I have been a member of CAF for a long time. I am beginning to feel like I am NOT Catholic enough unless I attend a Tridentine Mass (EF). It seems this forum discounts everyone who attends a NO Liturgy - since that Liturgy is not “correct.”

If you would ask me if I was a traditional Catholic outside of this forum I would quickly say yes. I would declare that since I honor and respect all the ways the Catholic Church accepts traditions of many forms as a valid celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

If I held fast to the EF - I would have missed many licit Liturgies in America…like the great African Liturgy when a friend was ordained to the priesthood. Like the simple Liturgy at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe where dogs are present, children are running around and people carry their belongings of the day into the Church…like a very uplifting “Lifeteen Mass” that bring many young people to Sunday and Holy Day’s Liturgies.

However within the context of this forum - the Traditional Catholic does not seem to be universal…even when the manner of celebrating is licit and within all guidelines.

Please do not get me wrong…I fully accept the EF Liturgy - however does the EF faithful accept me - a Catholic who wants valid Liturgies - in any universal tradition?**
 
I’ve wondered about this too! Though it can’t be mentioned, I thought that it had something to do with this particular area of CAF. I just figured that there was a lot talking around that subject but that no one would ever mention it by name? 🤷
 
The whole sentiment that “traditionalist Catholics” hold on to is that just having a valid liturgy isn’t enough. You can have a very poorly-done mass that is still valid. That part, the objective sacrifice, is just as much present in an OF liturgy as in an EF liturgy, and consequently, just as pleasing to God. But the qualm that traditionalists have is the extra trappings: the music, the setting, the outward disposition expressed by both the priest and the congregation, the rubrics, the seeming over-emphasis on community. All but one of those things (rubrics) can be done in a manner that is exactly the same as in what an EF liturgy looks like almost by default.

I’d say that if it really came down to it, the rubrics are the main thing, since everything else can be done just the same in the OF as in the EF. The rubrics in the OF are extremely liberal. If you look at the rubrics in the EF, they are very exacting. Now, if you didn’t know otherwise, you’d probably think something like the priest’s index fingers and thumbs touching throughout the entire EF consecration is just some pointless practice lost in time. However, that isn’t so. The point of that is so that if the priest so happens to have a particle of the host on his finger, he doesn’t drop it on the floor but rather washes it off when he does the Purification Rite after distribution of communion, and then consumes it. Is that an over-the-top practice? In my opinion, only if you think it’s okay to drop pieces of Jesus all over the floor to have Him horrifically desecrated with the vacuum later. Sadly, this practice can’t be done in the OF, because it is not a prescribed rubric. That is just an example, but the first one (and most important, I think) I could think of.

I think things like the recovery of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel are also very important. They set the tone. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar (“I go unto the altar of God…”) are somewhat long, several paragraphs, and do a better job at setting the theme of penitence present in mass than just the Penitential Act alone does. The last Gospel is a very poetic, primordial expression of Christ as Logos, and helps in the apologetic realm of defending Christ as God, and leaves a certain thought in the back of the mind that “Go, the mass is ended,” alone does not. Sadly, both of these things have been lost in the OF. It wouldn’t be hard to recover them.

EDIT: About the “unmentionable thing” in the above post, very few people in this forum subscribe to that belief.
 
jmjconder said:
**What does the title of this forum mean?

I have been a member of CAF for a long time. I am beginning to feel like I am NOT Catholic enough unless I attend a Tridentine Mass (EF). It seems this forum discounts everyone who attends a NO Liturgy - since that Liturgy is not “correct.”

If you would ask me if I was a traditional Catholic outside of this forum I would quickly say yes. I would declare that since I honor and respect all the ways the Catholic Church accepts traditions of many forms as a valid celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

If I held fast to the EF - I would have missed many licit Liturgies in America…like the great African Liturgy when a friend was ordained to the priesthood. Like the simple Liturgy at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe where dogs are present, children are running around and people carry their belongings of the day into the Church…like a very uplifting “Lifeteen Mass” that bring many young people to Sunday and Holy Day’s Liturgies.

However within the context of this forum - the Traditional Catholic does not seem to be universal…even when the manner of celebrating is licit and within all guidelines.

Please do not get me wrong…I fully accept the EF Liturgy - however does the EF faithful accept me - a Catholic who wants valid Liturgies - in any universal tradition?**
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I think some who favor the EF Mass incorrectly believe they belong to a different rite of the Church and they are wrong. With the coming of SP the EF Mass became easily available in my diocese and it was placed at well-suited, premium parishes in excellent locations as a means to get started. What’s the first thing those attending talked about? Creating their “own church” because they didn’t want to attend a “NO parish.” How utterly repugnant. The former bishop’s (who wrongly did not allow the EF) concerns about the EF fracturing the faithful had finally been realized! If the overall EF contingent wasn’t so tiny, I am sure they would have created grave problems in my diocese by now. Instead they have largely marginalized their own voice by keeping people away.

In the end I think people lose sight of the fact that 99.5+% of all sacrificial liturgies in all of the Catholic Church (East+West) are celebrations of the Ordinary Form of the Mass and that ultimately the tail ain’t gonna wag the dog. I attend the EF in my parish now and then and I don’t care for it all that much. Not because of the liturgy but because of the people. I get enough grim/sour looks during the week and I don’t need more at Mass. I don’t need people to descend upon me to tell me to tell me how bad the “Novus Ordo (sic)” Mass is, about “a clown mass” they saw on YouTube or about Tim Dolan wearing a cheese hat. Their abject lack of joy and constant negativity largely keeps me away from the EF Mass here locally.

To answer your question, being a “traditional Catholic” seems to be little more than a matter of preferring the EF Mass while denigrating the OF Mass at every possible opportunity. It’s also about adhering to a variable, mixed bag (it all depends on the individual) of customs and disciplines that are deemed to be “good” by the individual, while attacking those which the individual does not like (or understand.)

I know plenty of Latin Rite Catholics that attend the EF Mass exclusively but they in no way fit the “traditional Catholic” mold forged on these forums, thanks be to God.
 
Aeolian said:
In the end I think people lose sight of the fact that 99.5+% of all sacrificial liturgies in all of the Catholic Church (East+West) are celebrations of the Ordinary Form of the Mass
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Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point here? Eastern Catholic Churches do not celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
 
Aeolian said:
I think some who favor the EF Mass incorrectly believe they belong to a different rite of the Church and they are wrong. With the coming of SP the EF Mass became easily available in my diocese and it was placed at well-suited, premium parishes in excellent locations as a means to get started. What’s the first thing those attending talked about? Creating their “own church” because they didn’t want to attend a “NO parish.” How utterly repugnant.
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I understand the OP’s concerns, but I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a lets-bash-traditionalists-who-attend-the-EF thread.

Because when you start talking about things being repugnant, you put other people on the defensive.
To answer your question, being a “traditional Catholic” seems to be little more than a matter of preferring the EF Mass while denigrating the OF Mass at every possible opportunity.
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Another provocative comment above.

Our moderator put up a sticky about good topics for this forum.
 
I_Thirst said:
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point here? Eastern Catholic Churches do not celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
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In other words (all Eastern Catholic sacrificial liturgies)+(all EF Masses) = less than 1/2 of 1 percent all all Catholic sacrificial liturgies celebrated these days.
 
TrueLight said:
I understand the OP’s concerns, but I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a bash thread for traditionalists who attend the EF.

Because when you start talking about things being repugnant, you put other people on the defensive.

I also hope it is not a vent about traditionalists thread.

Our moderator put up a sticky about good topics for this forum.
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My apologies if I was too direct. I don’t use that term lightly in the least. When SP came out, our brand-new bishop was a huge help in having the EF Mass placed at strategic points throughout his diocese. Immediately and for at least the first year there were cries for “traditional parishes” devoid of the “NO Mass.” That he was wrong for not erecting such parishes. That really had an impact on me. I suspect it has been a major reason why the celebration of the EF Mass has largely languished (or even deteriorated in some locations) in my diocese.
 
TrueLight said:
I understand the OP’s concerns, but I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a lets-bash-traditionalists-who-attend-the-EF thread.

Because when you start talking about things being repugnant, you put other people on the defensive.

Another provocative comment above.

Our moderator put up a sticky about good topics for this forum.
Click to expand...
Great Point
 
YoungTradCath said:
The whole sentiment that “traditionalist Catholics” hold on to is that just having a valid liturgy isn’t enough. You can have a very poorly-done mass that is still valid. That part, the objective sacrifice, is just as much present in an OF liturgy as in an EF liturgy, and consequently, just as pleasing to God. But the qualm that traditionalists have is the extra trappings: the music, the setting, the outward disposition expressed by both the priest and the congregation, the rubrics, the seeming over-emphasis on community. All but one of those things (rubrics) can be done in a manner that is exactly the same as in what an EF liturgy looks like almost by default.

I’d say that if it really came down to it, the rubrics are the main thing, since everything else can be done just the same in the OF as in the EF. The rubrics in the OF are extremely liberal. If you look at the rubrics in the EF, they are very exacting. Now, if you didn’t know otherwise, you’d probably think something like the priest’s index fingers and thumbs touching throughout the entire EF consecration is just some pointless practice lost in time. However, that isn’t so. The point of that is so that if the priest so happens to have a particle of the host on his finger, he doesn’t drop it on the floor but rather washes it off when he does the Purification Rite after distribution of communion, and then consumes it. Is that an over-the-top practice? In my opinion, only if you think it’s okay to drop pieces of Jesus all over the floor to have Him horrifically desecrated with the vacuum later. Sadly, this practice can’t be done in the OF, because it is not a prescribed rubric. That is just an example, but the first one (and most important, I think) I could think of.

I think things like the recovery of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel are also very important. They set the tone. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar (“I go unto the altar of God…”) are somewhat long, several paragraphs, and do a better job at setting the theme of penitence present in mass than just the Penitential Act alone does. The last Gospel is a very poetic, primordial expression of Christ as Logos, and helps in the apologetic realm of defending Christ as God, and leaves a certain thought in the back of the mind that “Go, the mass is ended,” alone does not. Sadly, both of these things have been lost in the OF. It wouldn’t be hard to recover them.

EDIT: About the “unmentionable thing” in the above post, very few people in this forum subscribe to that belief.
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**You are saying there are two different rubrics accepted by the Holy See that differentiae the the NO or OF from the EF. Please cite this.

I continue to say we are a Universal Catholic Church.**
 
No I was thinking more in lines with…

“I understand the OP’s concerns, but I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a lets-bash-traditionalists-who-attend-the-EF thread.”

Peace
 
**I only posed with question with the most honest of hearts. This is a question I have often considered in the years I have been part of this forum/ I never meant to have this question be considered a “sticky” from the forum moderator.

If this is the case - please remove this post.**
 
GaryTaylor said:
No I was thinking more in lines with…

“I understand the OP’s concerns, but I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a lets-bash-traditionalists-who-attend-the-EF thread.”

Peace
Click to expand...
I agree. I am only trying to understand this forum.
 
jmjconder said:
**I only posed with question with the most honest of hearts. This is a question I have often considered in the years I have been part of this forum/ I never meant to have this question be considered a “sticky” from the forum moderator.

If this is the case - please remove this post.**
Click to expand...
Like I said, I understand your concerns. It’s just that one other person seems ready to take it in a different direction.

I consider a traditional Catholic anyone who is interested in not only being faithful to the magisterium, but also someone who really values the richness of Church tradition including prayers, feasts, novenas, the Saints. One does not have the desire to break with the past, but tends to be extremely interested in the old traditions.

It just so happens that a lot of traditional Catholics are interested in the older form of the mass as well as in Latin.

This is by far not a perfect definition, so I hope no one feels the need to come tell me the EF is recent and not quite the old rite, etc.

Y’all know what I mean.

I think it is important to have a forum that focuses on these traditional aspects of Catholicism since as others point out, we are a minority and to sound cheesy, this provides a “safe haven”… sometimes.
 
Thanks JMJCONDOR. I have wondered some of the same things. I had not realized there was such a split in the fabric of our Church until I got on this forum. I have been trying to understand their point of view without much success. Perhaps we need to have another forum called Vatican II Catholics or something like that. I feel that I get jumped on for saying caring things fairly often.
 
I consider a traditional Catholic anyone who is interested in not only being faithful to the magisterium, but also someone who really values the richness of Church tradition including prayers, feasts, novenas, the Saints. One does not have the desire to break with the past, but tends to be extremely interested in the old traditions.
Click to expand...
I agree with my whole heart…this post.
 
Ohana said:
Thanks JMJCONDOR. I have wondered some of the same things. I had not realized there was such a split in the fabric of our Church until I got on this forum. I have been trying to understand their point of view without much success. Perhaps we need to have another forum called Vatican II Catholics or something like that. I feel that I get jumped on for saying caring things fairly often.
Click to expand...
**Maybe the forum needs to be titled…“In the Center of the Catholic Church and Her Teachings.”

I have yet to see that the EF is the only way to celebrate the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. If I am wrong please cite.

In the mean time let us rejoice in what we have in common…the Holy Eucharist - the Sacrament of unity.**
 
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