Please explain "Begotten not made"

[foxyrox]

OK I STAND CORRECTED & thank you for helping me here.

I read the article you suggested. I understand it. I am not convinced and I know that it is Dogma. I don’t know how man, any man can know these things to be true…It’s a church belief, a mysterious belief. I don’t know why Mary’s being a good woman…selected among woman to be chosen is not good enough. I guess that is why I have trouble with my religion. I loved the words of Jesus, written in the New Testaments…He loved his mother, she was a good woman…she was human.

Oh I have so many issues, but I am reading and trying to understand. there are some really good sites, including this one, where I can re-examine my religion and give it another chance.
I want to believe that there is a life after death, but I just am not convinced. I just think that man has created religion because it is the more comforting alternative. I am just seeking the truth of it all. It has been a lifelong search for me, as I am not one to just accept…I like to know all the facts first.

 

[JimG]

Well, there are some pretty good articles on the main page of Catholic.com, which are usually helpful.

For myself, I think that if I believed that “man has created religion because it is the more comforting alternative,” I would probably rather be a simple pagan. It is a much easier life. I read Sheldon Vanauken’s “A Severe Mercy,” and the life he describes with his beloved in their “pagan” days seems rather idyllic and pleasant. By pagan, I don’t mean wiccan or having strange religious rituals, merely the absence of a supernatural religion, reveling in the purely natural. They were happy.

But paganism and naturalism are ultimately unsatisfying, both intellectually and emotionally, because it doesn’t address or encompass all of reality.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

FightingFat:

I think this means he was not made of man- but begotten of God and would be a reference to his immaculate conception.

The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary, not Jesus.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

foxyrox:

I have had the wrong idea then for many years…wow. How can we know that Mary was as you say from the moment of her conception. Where does it say this in the Bible ? I will need to read this.

The Bible is not our sole rule of Faith. We have the Bible, as well as the Church (which came before the Bible). Read the Early Church Fathers. A few great sites to start with would be:

scripturecatholic.com,
earlychurchfathers.org,
newadvent.org/fathers/,
amm.org/chss.htm,
catholicity.com/maryfoundation

Addressing the Virgin Mary issue:

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

 

[Rebecca_New]

JimG:

Keep in mind that when Catholics speak of the “Immaculate Conception,” it has nothing to do with sex.

It refers, rather to Mary being conceived without having original sin on her soul. She was conceived, as far as I know, in the normal way, by her parents, but without original sin.

(And she was prevented from having original sin as a result of the merits of her Son, her redeemer.)

I have read that Mary was conceived when St. Anne and spouse (forgot his name) embraced in the temple. But another thought is that Mary had the ovum of Jesus when she was born. So in a way St. Anne was also carrying the ovum that was to be Jesus when she was carrying Our Blessed Mother.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

How does Isaiah 43:10 work into this?

 

[Loy]

Rebecca New:

I have read that Mary was conceived when St. Anne and spouse (forgot his name) embraced in the temple.

I have not heard that one. Traditionally, the father of St. Mary is referred to as St. Joachim.
Rebecca New:

But another thought is that Mary had the ovum of Jesus when she was born. So in a way St. Anne was also carrying the ovum that was to be Jesus when she was carrying Our Blessed Mother. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/hmmm.gif

That would be true according to biological science if we assume that the Holy Spirit fashioned the corporal body of Jesus wholly or partially from a natural ovum of St. Mary. Unlike spermatazoa, each and every ovum develops from a specific oocyte existing within the ovary at birth. No new oocytes are created after birth. Therefore, St. Anne would have had that specific oocyte within her womb while she was carrying the Mother of God.

It’s kind of fascinating, but every pregnant mother carries within her the specific oocytes that will become her grandchildren!

The Development of the Human Ovum

 

[Loy]

kellyb32:

How can Jesus be begotten and not made?

There are some great posts in this thread. I expecially recommend # 6 (by JimG), # 14 (by puzzleannie) and # 22 (by Goblin_Taters).

Keep in mind that all of these are attempts to describe the Perfect, Infinite Being with imperfect finite human language. That’s why there are words such as “begotten” and “generated” used to describe One who, in the normal meaning of those words, is neither. That’s why the Church Fathers qualified “begotten” with “eternally” and “not made”.

kellyb32:

I did find some info on the Catholic Answers Library regarding the eternal sonship of Christ

That is an excellent article: The Eternal Sonship of Christ.

A person could spend an entire lifetime studying the Trinity, as well as the begotten nature of Christ and still not completely understand it. Like the rest of the Trinity doctrine, it is a mystery.

To boil it down as simply as possible, the term “begotten” as used in the Nicene Creed describes the relationship between the First and Second Persons of the Trinity as Father and Son. But even the terms “Father” and “Son” are a mystery. The Son proceeds from the Father. The Nicene Council goes on to say that they are of the same essence.

The XIth Synod of Toledo prepared a creed in 675 that goes into more detail. Although the creed is neither dogmaticly nor infallibly defined, many theologians respect its descriptions of the Trinity (despite that it led to the filioque dispute with the Eastern Orthodox): Symbol of Faith

 

[Loy]

JimG:

Since the phrase “begotten not made” appears in the Nicene Creed, and the OP’s question had to do with how Jesus could be begotten but not made, I figure that the intent of the question was to explain the phrase as a Christian creedal belief. So it would seem proper to ask what the authors of the Nicene Creed meant to convey by it.

An excellent suggestion. A good place to start would be the Church Fathers, especially St. Epiphanius of Salamis, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Athanasius, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Basil the Great, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Hilary of Potiers, Pope St. Leo I and St. Augustine of Hippo, who wrote on the subject near the time of the Nicene Council (give or take 100 yrs).

 

[doomhammer]

JimG:

Since the phrase “begotten not made” appears in the Nicene Creed, and the OP’s question had to do with how Jesus could be begotten but not made, I figure that the intent of the question was to explain the phrase as a Christian creedal belief. So it would seem proper to ask what the authors of the Nicene Creed meant to convey by it.

”And those who say “there once was when he was not”, and “before he was begotten he was not”, and that he came to be from things that were not, or from another hypostasis [Gr. hypostaseos] or substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia], affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.”
First Council of Nicea, 325

 

[batteddy]

The Son’s nature is not different or separate from that of the Father. Only in his Person is he distinct.

In the incarnation, it was that Person of the Son, who also assumed a human nature.

The term “begotten, not made” is intended to make clear that the Second Person of the Trinity is not a created being. In fact, he is one being with the Father.

True. The Son is only distinct in Person, and in fact this distinction comes only from his relation relative to the other divine persons in God’s internal life, and these relations in turn are identical to the nature of God himself. It is an awe inspiring mystery. The Father is distinctly the Father because he is the Source-Without-Source who begets the Son. The Son is distinctly the Son because he is begotten by the Father. The Holy Spirit is distinctly the Holy Spirit because he proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle, and correspondingly the Father and Son spirate the Holy Spirit as through one principal. In fact, the Father is Eternal Paternity subsisting. The Son* is* Filiation subsisting. The Holy Spirit is procession subsisting.

This love, eternally proceeding from the Father and Son is the Holy Spirit. This eternal giving and receptivity is the Glory of God.

True. Though there is so much depth here:

newadvent.org/summa/103700.htm

 

[Nicene]

Daniel Marsh:

How does Isaiah 43:10 work into this?

Isa 43:10: “You are my witnesses,” says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Where do you see a discrepancy DM?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Philthy]

foxyrox:

OK I STAND CORRECTED & thank you for helping me here.

I read the article you suggested. I understand it. I am not convinced and I know that it is Dogma. I don’t know how man, any man can know these things to be true…It’s a church belief, a mysterious belief. I don’t know why Mary’s being a good woman…selected among woman to be chosen is not good enough. I guess that is why I have trouble with my religion. I loved the words of Jesus, written in the New Testaments…He loved his mother, she was a good woman…she was human.

Oh I have so many issues, but I am reading and trying to understand. there are some really good sites, including this one, where I can re-examine my religion and give it another chance.
I want to believe that there is a life after death, but I just am not convinced. I just think that man has created religion because it is the more comforting alternative. I am just seeking the truth of it all. It has been a lifelong search for me, as I am not one to just accept…I like to know all the facts first.

Then you are dwelling on the wrong issues. You need to dwell on who Jesus Christ IS/WAS. Read his words, hear everything he says including that he is the Son of God. Hear his predictions of his death and resurrection; and hear the witnesses who’s lives were radically changed by their knowledge of Him. Especially consider that most of them accepted death at the hands of others rather than a simple renunciation of who He was and is…