please explain Episcopalian view

[CMatt25]

Hi Matt. this was not really directed at you. Im just preparing to play devils advocate. would that be ok, or should you and I do this p.m. It could be fun. I dont really think this would be appropriate for younger ears where I can go with this. and we do have younger viewers here. Peace and prayers for you and yours my friend.

Hi Benidict, play whoever you want here. Ok by me. But I’m not certain even my aging ears are up to where you might go with this. And I’m about ready to head off for a gyro. Then have some NCAA to watch. Bucks have a score to settle with Badgers. :yup: Try to keep it somewhat clean for the youngsters though. Peace to you and yours as well and God bless you over there my friend and keep you safe. And a liberal thanks you for your service til you get on the beaches of Hawaii.

 

[benidict]

Hi Benidict, play whoever you want here. Ok by me. But I’m not certain even my aging ears are up to where you might go with this. And I’m about ready to head off for a gyro. Try to keep it somewhat clean for the youngsters though. Peace to you and yours as well and God bless you over there my friend and keep you safe.

Enjoy the gyro my friend. I love em! Just let me know if you want to do this on a p.m. It does deal with more of an adult nature, and biblical prohibitions against other practices. I cannot in good consicience do it on an open forum. I had this discussion with an ex girl friend, and her admissions were startling. That was years ago. Im pretty good at leading people into telling me how they really feel, and The whole issue of legitamizing Homosexuality leads into a whole range of issues, that I believe could tear our society apart. There has to be limits on human behavior. If society and the Church cannot do this, then who? Where does it end. I think it would be a great intellectual excercise. Just let me know if you are game. I dont want to offend you in any way. Peace p.s. the Michigan Wolverines spanked the Spartans so I am very happy!

 

[guanophore]

Hello Guan,  you seem to want it both ways.

Today you say “truth does not equate to all known truth”.

I think if you are honest, CMatt, you will recognize that I have not just said this today, but every day. The Catholic Church does not claim to have a corner on “all known Truth”. She teaches, in fact, that Truth is revealed through a number of sources, including nature itself.

Truth does not change from day to day, CMatt. Jesus is Truth, and he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

But then in another response to me you said my "theory" that truth can not be known does not hold water.

And indeed it does not - amoung faithful Christians, at least. You see, Christians have recieved Truth from God as it has been revealed, so to say that we cannot know what God has given us to know is a falsehood.

John 1:14-15

14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

Either you believe revealed truth is all truth known to you or you believe truth does not equate to all your known truth. I’m now confused Guan as to which it is you do believe.

In fact, both things are true. Jesus has revealed all that we need to know for our salvation through His One Body, the Church. We do not need to have access to “all known truth” in order to walk in His ways.

See Guan my “theory” as you like to call it is simply true reality.

I accept that this is the reality that you have created for yourself, in which you walk. In order to justify disobedience to the revealed Truth of God, one of the most effective ways is to deny that we can actually “know” that Truth.

Before you can get to the point at which you are, we must first unlike non believers have a faith in a Creator/God. Then unlike those of the Jewish faith for instance we must place faith in the NT. Then you must place faith in Catholic Church interpretation of Herself and all Her other interpretations of Scripture. You place faith in ECFS, the Catholic Church’s interpretations of their wrirings, and faith early Christians got everything right. See Guan those are a lot of faith steps to take before you start thinking you know what the ultimate one truth is with absolute certainty.

Indeed, God is merciful. However, the ultimate “one Truth” exists outside of all these “steps”. Jesus revealed Himself, and whether I personally ever take these steps or not, that Truth still exists.

And it was po18guy who said “many of us Catholics find relativism to be anathema”. So I am pleased you disagree.

God bless you Guan and have a peaceful day!

Ok, I will concede the point that some people may think of heretical beliefs as being accursed. Moral relativism, and other heresies, certainly do appear to be the spawn of the devil, who is accursed. :yup:

 

[CMatt25]

Enjoy the gyro my friend. I love em! Just let me know if you want to do this on a p.m. It does deal with more of an adult nature, and biblical prohibitions against other practices. I cannot in good consicience do it on an open forum. I had this discussion with an ex girl friend, and her admissions were startling. That was years ago. Im pretty good at leading people into telling me how they really feel, and The whole issue of legitamizing Homosexuality leads into a whole range of issues, that I believe could tear our society apart. There has to be limits on human behavior. If society and the Church cannot do this, then who? Where does it end. I think it would be a great intellectual excercise. Just let me know if you are game. I dont want to offend you in any way. Peace p.s. the Michigan Wolverines spanked the Spartans so I am very happy!

Oh no an interrogator and MICHIGAN! The latter. A huge problem. :yup: Bye.

 

[benidict]

Oh no an interrogator and MICHIGAN! The latter. A huge problem. :yup: Bye.

well I am a cop…So I kinda have to know how to interogate to a certain extent… Hail to the Victors!

 

[CMatt25]

Truth does not change from day to day, CMatt. Jesus is Truth, and he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

And indeed it does not - amoung faithful Christians, at least. You see, Christians have recieved Truth from God as it has been revealed, so to say that we cannot know what God has given us to know is a falsehood.

Ok, I will concede the point that some people may think of heretical beliefs as being accursed. Moral relativism, and other heresies, certainly do appear to be the spawn of the devil, who is accursed. :yup:

Guan, I understand you believe Christians have received in your words “all that we need to know” through the Catholic Church.

But please do not imply or accuse me of not being a faithful Christian.

And again confusion. First you say you are not at liberty to “find another faith or belief anathema”. But now you say “moral relativism, and other heresies, certainly do appear to be the spawn of the devil, who is accursed”

Ok I’m heading off. Maybe I need 2 gyros.

 

[jlhargus]

And then there are those that mask their self-righteous attitudes in cute little sound bites like “relativism.” I think thats probably the go to word here when arguing about just about anything.

Cmatt’s explanation sums it up pretty well, Many other parts of the bible aren’t taken literally why that one? I mean thats the real question right? why is that stuff which opposes homosexual acts (not homosexuals themselves) observed when say owning slaves aren’t? now if you were to argue that that the homosexual act is a sin because it is out of wedlock thats different. I personally believe thats true, its a sin out of wedlock. But then who are we to judge what a person does in the privacy of their own home? I’m uneasy with openly gay priests who do not have at the very least a legally recognized union (like a civil union or marriage). It at least represents some promise of exclusivity. The Christian God is a God of love, we as Episcopalians would rather focus on God’s love for us and ours for Him. That doesn’t mean we don’t obey God’s rules whenever we feel like it. We ask questions because we are thinking reasoning beings, when a question is raised we examine it if we find the answer flies in the face of tradition then we need to be very careful in its implementation. I DO NOT believe the American Anglicans did a very good job in implementing this change, it seemed a little hasty to me personally. This stuff always happens though, people get angry, they join the Catholic church, then people in the Catholic Church get angry and they join the Anglican Churches. Happens all the time everywhere.

JL: Is it love to teach a lie that ends in Hell?

 

[StTommyMore]

Guess I have a different definition than you. It is not relativism to me when folks are on their paths, walking in faith towards whatever the ultimate truth turns out to be.

You summed up relativism very well here. Relativism is when one looks to the self, and not to God for Truth.

 

[jbuck919]

Bottom line: If you, jbuck919, think homosexual behavior is fine, it actually is fine?

No, bottom line, if a denomination teaches officially that it is wrong, is it wrong for the reasons that are taught? It is not my question; I’m just airing it. And if it is not my position to answer it as if I were a teacher of moral philosophy, then it is also not my position to answer it as though I were one of this site’s apologists for official doctrine.

 

[CMatt25]

JL: Is it love to teach a lie that ends in Hell?

I didn’t know the Church says who ends in hell.

 

[CMatt25]

You summed up relativism very well here. Relativism is when one looks to the self, and not to God for Truth.

Thank you

 

[StTommyMore]

I didn’t know the Church says who ends in hell.

The CHurch does not teach that specific individuals end in hell, but there are people in hell–anyone who dies in mortal sin.

 

[CMatt25]

The CHurch does not teach that specific individuals end in hell, but there are people in hell–anyone who dies in mortal sin.

I know depending on how the Church defines mortal sin. Here’s the problem I ses with that. I was responding to Jlhargus mentioning teachings that end in hell. So take Jane Doe for instance. Mortal sin is a serious sin against God. And missing Mass thru one’s own fault is a serious sin the Church tells us. So lets say Jane misses a single weekday Holy Day of Obligation her entire life. Otherwise lived an exemplary Christian life. Did not repent in her heart for missing that one Mass. Dies with that “serious sin” unrepented. An obligation not even universal in dioceses across what Catholics believe is the universal Church. But a merciful God would judge Jane to hell for that? I wouldn’t believe that in a million yrs.

 

[StTommyMore]

I know depending on how the Church defines mortal sin. Here’s the problem I ses with that. I was responding to Jlhargus mentioning teachings that end in hell. So take Jane Doe for instance. Mortal sin is a serious sin against God. And missing Mass thru one’s own fault is a serious sin the Church tells us. So lets say Jane misses a single weekday Holy Day of Obligation her entire life. Otherwise lived an exemplary Christian life. Did not repent in her heart for missing that one Mass. Dies with that “serious sin” unrepented. An obligation not even universal in dioceses across what Catholics believe is the universal Church. But a merciful God would judge Jane to hell for that? I wouldn’t believe that in a million yrs.

Here is your problem. You think that someone, by attending Mass, has somehow earned salvation. We are saved by the grace of God, and nothing anyone does can make them worthy of the beatific vision. If one misses mas thoriugh thir own fault is rebelling against God. Missing Mass is more serious than you think. Missing Mass:

• Denies the authority of the Church
• Forsakes the assemby of the faithful
• Takes for grnated the gift of the Eucharist
• Disrespects the martyrs who have died for the Eucharist

God would be justified in sending any of us to hell on the basis of our sin. It is that simple. The problem is you have tamed God so much that you think experiencing God in His glory would be anything other that traumatic. We know this because of experiences described in the Scriptures. For an example, read the experience of Isaiah in the sixth chapter of his book.

 

[benidict]

Hi Matt. Quick question. Is there such a thing as absolute truth? Or is truth just something that is up to the individual? Peace

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Not all Anglicans accept homosexual clergy, and active homosexual behavior. That is just ONE of the many things that is causing the Anglican churches (the Episcopalian Church is just a branch of the Anglican) to shatter apart.

The Episcopal church has been declining in membership for many, many years (since the 19th century). This issue, along with female “priests and bishops” has driven more and more from that church.

At the rate that it is dying out, in about 100 years or so, there will be no organized Anglican church left. In Great Britain only about 10% of the people attend church on a regular basis, and that number is dropping. In the US, it is also losing membership very rapidly.

The leadership of this “church” will twist scripture to any extent necessary to attempt to be “relevant”. They appear to believe that if they become more and more “liberal”, they will be more open to people seeking a church were they can feel good about themselves, regardless of their behavior. They simply can not see that the further that they get away from their traditional beliefs, the more members they lose.

At one time, the ONLY observable difference between the Episcopal Church and the Roman Catholic were that their services were in English, the head of their church is the Monarch of England and their clergy are mostly married. Their essential beliefs were identical to ours in most respects. Their service was almost identical to the Mass.

But, that is no longer the case at all. They differ from the Roman Catholic Church in many of their beliefs, and they are pulling further and further apart. As they do this, they are simply losing their membership (and many of their clergy).

All of the “mainstream” Protestant churches are losing members. All of them have become “liberalized”, and have radically departed from their roots. Most of them no longer have any real concept of sin, they excuse virtually any behavior, and they stretch the meaning of the Bible to the point that it no longer has any meaning at all.

I call them all “Churches of whatever feels good now”.

 

[CMatt25]

Here is your problem. You think that someone, by attending Mass, has somehow earned salvation. We are saved by the grace of God, and nothing anyone does can make them worthy of the beatific vision. If one misses mas thoriugh thir own fault is rebelling against God. Missing Mass is more serious than you think. Missing Mass:

• Denies the authority of the Church
• Forsakes the assemby of the faithful
• Takes for grnated the gift of the Eucharist
• Disrespects the martyrs who have died for the Eucharist

God would be justified in sending any of us to hell on the basis of our sin. It is that simple. The problem is you have tamed God so much that you think experiencing God in His glory would be anything other that traumatic. We know this because of experiences described in the Scriptures. For an example, read the experience of Isaiah in the sixth chapter of his book.

STM, actually I don’t think attending Mass earns salvation. But then like other faiths including the Episcopalians of this thread, I also don’t think missing is more serious than I think. Whether it’s missing Mass or who on earth has authority or control of our consciences, the Eucharist, or whether it’s Episcopalian, or anyone elses views, it all begins with and comes down to a matter of faith. May God bless you in walking yours with His peace.

 

[benidict]

Not all Anglicans accept homosexual clergy, and active homosexual behavior. That is just ONE of the many things that is causing the Anglican churches (the Episcopalian Church is just a branch of the Anglican) to shatter apart.

The Episcopal church has been declining in membership for many, many years (since the 19th century). This issue, along with female “priests and bishops” has driven more and more from that church.

At the rate that it is dying out, in about 100 years or so, there will be no organized Anglican church left. In Great Britain only about 10% of the people attend church on a regular basis, and that number is dropping. In the US, it is also losing membership very rapidly.

The leadership of this “church” will twist scripture to any extent necessary to attempt to be “relevant”. They appear to believe that if they become more and more “liberal”, they will be more open to people seeking a church were they can feel good about themselves, regardless of their behavior. They simply can not see that the further that they get away from their traditional beliefs, the more members they lose.

At one time, the ONLY observable difference between the Episcopal Church and the Roman Catholic were that their services were in English, the head of their church is the Monarch of England and their clergy are mostly married. Their essential beliefs were identical to ours in most respects. Their service was almost identical to the Mass.

But, that is no longer the case at all. They differ from the Roman Catholic Church in many of their beliefs, and they are pulling further and further apart. As they do this, they are simply losing their membership (and many of their clergy).

All of the “mainstream” Protestant churches are losing members. All of them have become “liberalized”, and have radically departed from their roots. Most of them no longer have any real concept of sin, they excuse virtually any behavior, and they stretch the meaning of the Bible to the point that it no longer has any meaning at all.

I call them all “Churches of whatever feels good now”.

That is so very true. My friend who is a Priest in the Episcopalian Communion, would never sanction Homosexuality. And the interesting thing is, during our talks, He is more in line with us, on some very important doctrinal matters as well.He and I both converted from the Reformed Baptist church. He went Episcopalian because of his british roots. I went to Rome, being convinced in my heart that all She teaches is truth. Either way, we both had a change of heart because of the ECFs. I have a feeling that in not too many years, he will probably be coming our way. Peace

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I know depending on how the Church defines mortal sin. Here’s the problem I ses with that. I was responding to Jlhargus mentioning teachings that end in hell. So take Jane Doe for instance. Mortal sin is a serious sin against God. And missing Mass thru one’s own fault is a serious sin the Church tells us. So lets say Jane misses a single weekday Holy Day of Obligation her entire life. Otherwise lived an exemplary Christian life. Did not repent in her heart for missing that one Mass. Dies with that “serious sin” unrepented. An obligation not even universal in dioceses across what Catholics believe is the universal Church. But a merciful God would judge Jane to hell for that? I wouldn’t believe that in a million yrs.

I know this is your personal bugboo, Matt, but I find it astonishing that you attempt to limit God in this way so that He must comply to ‘your’ rules.

If Jane has committed a mortal sin, it is a mortal sin, whether you personally think it is a ‘big deal’ or not. If she (a ‘good Christian’) knowingly commits that sin and doesn’t repent, then Jane is choosing to put HER will over God’s.

It is not God’s judgment which sends Jane to hell, it is JANE who chooses to say, “My will, God, not yours” and JANE who chooses hell.

I don’t know why you find it so difficult to see that God’s mercy is that He permits Jane to choose. She had the chance, she chose death, and rather than force her to obey Him, He permits her to have her will even though that will is to deny and defy Him.

I don’t know why you try to make it that He is ‘punishing’ her. It would be a punishment for Him to MAKE her obey Him – it is NOT a punishment to let her have her way!

 

[CMatt25]

All of the “mainstream” Protestant churches are losing members.

Who knows? In that case the Bible does say few find the way.