Please explain how this is not sacrilegious

[jombo22]

(I’m sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this…)

There is an Italian custom that involves parading around the statue of a saint and giving money to it. There is usually a big feast that goes on for several days, lots of drinking, carnival games, etc. The main attraction is a processional where some people (members of the “madonna della ____ society”) carry the statue around and other people pin money to it. People often make a big show of it, too, unrolling long rolls of dollar bills from the rooftops of buildings, or rolled up sheets of bills. The money is not donated to charity or anything like that, it goes to support the society, which is more or less a fraternity for older Italian men.

Every time I see these “feasts”, I am reminded of the story of the golden calf, where Moses comes back from Mt Sinai with the ten commandments, sees everyone worshiping the golden statue and gets really pissed off.

The whole thing feels very sacrilegious to me, and I’ve offended quite a few Italians asking them about this. I have yet to receive a real answer. Maybe you guys can clear this up for me?

 

[Philthy]

(I’m sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this…)

There is an Italian custom that involves parading around the statue of a saint and giving money to it. There is usually a big feast that goes on for several days, lots of drinking, carnival games, etc. The main attraction is a processional where some people (members of the “madonna della ____ society”) carry the statue around and other people pin money to it. People often make a big show of it, too, unrolling long rolls of dollar bills from the rooftops of buildings, or rolled up sheets of bills. The money is not donated to charity or anything like that, it goes to support the society, which is more or less a fraternity for older Italian men.

Every time I see these “feasts”, I am reminded of the story of the golden calf, where Moses comes back from Mt Sinai with the ten commandments, sees everyone worshiping the golden statue and gets really pissed off.

The whole thing feels very sacrilegious to me, and I’ve offended quite a few Italians asking them about this. I have yet to receive a real answer. Maybe you guys can clear this up for me?

Never heard of such a thing. Its hard to measure the intent of the heart of those participating…

 

[duffyk4]

Would you be so kind as to provide us with a link or at least a name pertaining to the feast in question? This would do wonders in regards to our ability to provide a well-informed opinion and answer to your concern. Thank you in advance!

 

[NHInsider]

Well, given that none of us can know the heart of another, I can only respond to the description you have given. The first thing it made me think of is the number of once-religious holidays that have developed decidedly secular “celebrations,” often participated in enthusiastically by people who have no real devotion to the Lord.

Take, for an example, Christmas in America. I don’t think anyone would deny that it has become a disgustingly commercialized, secularized celebration, which frequently includes excessive drinking and eating as well as spending, and all kinds of “traditions” that are far from Sacred Tradition. But - and this is a giant but - none of that makes the actual celebration of the Birth of the Lord any less holy. The same can be said for Easter, Thanksgiving . . . and don’t even start with Hallowe’en.

But sacreligious? Sacreligious means showing disrespect for the sacred. I don’t know whether a procession/parade with a statue of the patron of a club can be considered sacreligious because of various antics involving money. Unseemly, probably. Whether it’s sacreligious, I don’t know.

Either way, it’s not really a “church” issue, is it?

 

[jombo22]

Never heard of such a thing. Its hard to measure the intent of the heart of those participating…

One person I asked said that if you give to the saint, she will grant whatever your wishes are, or cure whatever diseases you have. Someone else I asked said, “they aren’t hurting anyone, I don’t see what’s so bad about it”.

It’s hard to measure the intent of those participating yes, and most people probably just go along with the tradition without thinking or caring much about it.

But these feasts are often blessed by members of the clergy. Processionals often begin right after mass on Sundays, and the priest will usually speak a little bit beforehand. They certainly can’t claim ignorance like the general public can… So either they are knowingly condoning idol worship, or somehow this doesn’t fit under the definition of idolatry.

I don’t think people are “worshiping” the statues the same way they worship God, but the whole thing still makes me uncomfortable.

Well, given that none of us can know the heart of another, I can only respond to the description you have given. The first thing it made me think of is the number of once-religious holidays that have developed decidedly secular “celebrations,” often participated in enthusiastically by people who have no real devotion to the Lord.

Take, for an example, Christmas in America. I don’t think anyone would deny that it has become a disgustingly commercialized, secularized celebration, which frequently includes excessive drinking and eating as well as spending, and all kinds of “traditions” that are far from Sacred Tradition. But - and this is a giant but - none of that makes the actual celebration of the Birth of the Lord any less holy. The same can be said for Easter, Thanksgiving . . . and don’t even start with Hallowe’en.

But sacreligious? Sacreligious means showing disrespect for the sacred. I don’t know whether a procession/parade with a statue of the patron of a club can be considered sacreligious because of various antics involving money. Unseemly, probably. Whether it’s sacreligious, I don’t know.

Either way, it’s not really a “church” issue, is it?

I agree with you, and it doesn’t bother me that non-religious people celebrate Christmas and don’t ever really think of its meaning. However, I get the impression that these are mostly practicing Catholics who participate in these feasts. As I said above, the processions often begin directly after mass, and usually after some blessing from the priest.

Maybe sacrilegious is the wrong word, but the whole thing just feels contrary to the Bible.

Would you be so kind as to provide us with a link or at least a name pertaining to the feast in question? This would do wonders in regards to our ability to provide a well-informed opinion and answer to your concern. Thank you in advance!

Sure, check out St Anthony’s Feast, one of the big ones in Boston. Here’s is the website: stanthonysfeast.com/

Here are some pictures:



http://www.northendwaterfront.com/s....jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1249869409470

 

[VetA]

(I’m sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this…)

There is an Italian custom that involves parading around the statue of a saint and giving money to it. There is usually a big feast that goes on for several days, lots of drinking, carnival games, etc. The main attraction is a processional where some people (members of the “madonna della ____ society”) carry the statue around and other people pin money to it. People often make a big show of it, too, unrolling long rolls of dollar bills from the rooftops of buildings, or rolled up sheets of bills. The money is not donated to charity or anything like that, it goes to support the society, which is more or less a fraternity for older Italian men.

Every time I see these “feasts”, I am reminded of the story of the golden calf, where Moses comes back from Mt Sinai with the ten commandments, sees everyone worshiping the golden statue and gets really pissed off.

The whole thing feels very sacrilegious to me, and I’ve offended quite a few Italians asking them about this. I have yet to receive a real answer. Maybe you guys can clear this up for me?

dude watch the language the mods are strict, for good reason. welcom to CAF btw

 

[jombo22]

dude watch the language the mods are strict, for good reason. welcom to CAF btw

Oops, sorry I think maybe “he got angry” doesn’t quite do an adequate job of how describing how Moses responded… But I will be more careful in the future, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I don’t know anything about this, other than the info in your post, however your verdict that it is sacriligeous seems wrong:

1. Just because there’s a statue doesn’t mean there is any comparison with the golden calf. The use of icons and images, in the new covenant, has been debated over-and-over, since the early church, and the Catholic church has consistently ruled that statues and icons are now licit (but not, obviously, to be worshiped).
2. Posting money on the statue - so what? They are not worshiping the statue, they are raising money for a good cause (apparently). If it were a statue of Jesus, or Mary, then perhaps that would be pushing the line, but posting money on the statue seems to me to be just the same as having the saint walking around in real life, and shoving money in his pocket (as a donation, not a bribe). And that is probably the sub-conscious intention.
3. The money is not for a charity, but for a fraternity for older men? Sounds like a charity to me. It probably goes back to the days before welfare when the older men needed this to survive. Or else, they might be like the Knights of Columbus, directing the money raised to their good causes.
4. Feasting with drunkeness? There will always be a minority of people who will get drunk at any festive event. An aberration does turn the whole event into sacriliege. (eg. Christmas, as observed by NHInsider).
5. Showing off the donations? Also questionable, but it sounds to me like they celebrating the donation, and the money being raised, rather than the donor. Again, as with the drunkennes, an aberration does not turn the whole event into sacriliege.

Don’t assume that because your Italian friends haven’t been able to justifiy it that they can’t. Your questions will seem “out of left field” to them, as they have never considered them. They might well be able to get the answers, if you ask politely, clearly, and give them time.

 

[zdon011]

Most of these (rural?) folk probably weren’t adequately catechized, like many ‘cafeteria Catholics’ in the West. They’ve trivialised legitimate spiritual devotion to a saint/Our Lady into a ‘fun’ event, probably with influence from a pagan cultural heritage. Perhaps something similar could be said of many happy-clappy/rock ‘n’ roll Pentecostals?
The worst examples of this are probably the native pseudo-Catholic cults in Central and South America, that have completely syncretised Christ and Our Lady into their pagan pantheons. All I can say is: Call in the Catechists!

 

[Musicadmirer]

One person I asked said that if you give to the saint, she will grant whatever your wishes are, or cure whatever diseases you have. Someone else I asked said, “they aren’t hurting anyone, I don’t see what’s so bad about it”.

It’s hard to measure the intent of those participating yes, and most people probably just go along with the tradition without thinking or caring much about it.

But these feasts are often blessed by members of the clergy. Processionals often begin right after mass on Sundays, and the priest will usually speak a little bit beforehand. They certainly can’t claim ignorance like the general public can… So either they are knowingly condoning idol worship, or somehow this doesn’t fit under the definition of idolatry.

I don’t think people are “worshiping” the statues the same way they worship God, but the whole thing still makes me uncomfortable.

I agree with you, and it doesn’t bother me that non-religious people celebrate Christmas and don’t ever really think of its meaning. However, I get the impression that these are mostly practicing Catholics who participate in these feasts. As I said above, the processions often begin directly after mass, and usually after some blessing from the priest.

Maybe sacrilegious is the wrong word, but the whole thing just feels contrary to the Bible.

Sure, check out St Anthony’s Feast, one of the big ones in Boston. Here’s is the website: stanthonysfeast.com/

Here are some pictures:

http://www.tuffguyphotography.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/stant1.jpg

Account Suspended

In my opinion, fastening currency to a religious statue is in poor taste. Whether or not it is sacrilegious is determined by a person’s interior motive.

 

[Rolltide]

This is in the US, but I imagine it’s something like this one in New Jersey:

Part I
youtube.com/watch?v=MSYaRBgTfcw

Part II
youtube.com/watch?v=L9TIlU1F_H0

Or possibly similar to the magnificent Holy Week celebrations in Spain (which are so important, they are nationally televised):

Our Lady of Hope (aka The Virgin of Macarena) departing the Basilica of Nuestra Senora de la Esperanza Macarena
youtube.com/watch?v=L4Ab3fsGRVQ&feature=related

Jesus del Gran Poder (Christ of Great Power) - sponsored by the Brotherhood (fraternal order) of Gypsies
youtube.com/watch?v=8aR6nh69ztg&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=Glip3SzmZxw

The Christ of the Three Falls (El Cristo de las tres caidas)
youtube.com/watch?v=qJXD3BL3nGY&feature=related

Each statue represents either a moment in the life of Jesus or a holy person associated with Jesus and Christianity whose life is worthy of celebration. (This is usually performed during Holy Week in Spain.) All of the churches in the city will parade at least one (and often more) statues relevant to the parade. The culminating statues of the parade will all represent Christ’s Passion and Resurrection. Figures dressed in robes with tall conical hats (reminiscent of KKK robes) are penitents, leading the parade and asking forgiveness from God for their transgressions and the transgressions of the people. It is an act of humility. The incredibly heavy floats will be paraded throughout the city (in this case, Seville, which has the most famous parade) and sway in such a way as to make the statues appear even more lifelike. Periodically, singers will appear from balconies singing beautiful laments and sorrowful prayers to Jesus in recognition of His great sacrifice. Some singers are pre-stationed at certain points, but many are simply pious bystanders that stop to give their respects. (You’ll hear one start singing at about the 2:20 mark of the second Jesus del Gran Poder video. There’s another female singer a bit later in the same clip.) The parade will momentarily stop, the crowd will fall silent in respect, and then it will continue again.

 

[jombo22]

Of course if I had all the answers, I would not have posted this here asking for help!

Thanks everybody, I feel a lot better about the whole thing now. I think you guys are right that though it may be somewhat “in poor taste” (or maybe not even, although it definitely feels that way to me), whether or not it goes against the Bible depends on what is in the hearts and minds of the people who are participating.

 

[VetA]

Oops, sorry I think maybe “he got angry” doesn’t quite do an adequate job of how describing how Moses responded… But I will be more careful in the future, thanks for the heads up.

no yeah dude i understand i would describie it like that myself just not here, the reason why i say something about it is because i got told about my language by the mods and i dont want to see anyone get banned or on their way to getting banned (which is how im assuming their infraction point system works) especially like you who just got here, you may want to edit your post if you still can you wouldent want to have someone report it (i didnt but someone might)

 

[utah_rose]

I think I may be able to answer this. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio with a large Italian population. The feast of the Assumption was a big holiday for them, at least in the fifties and sixties.

There would be a large procession, and perhaps they did put money on the statue. However, I wouldn’t call this sacriligeous. The Italians honor Our Lady on this special feast.

If anything, putting money on the statue may be off the line or maybe superstitious, but have you ever been to a wedding celebration where money is pinned on the bride’s gown?

The Mardi Gras parades in both New Orleans and Mobile can tend tend to be rowdy and maybe sinful if there is a lot of boisterous and drunken celebration, but these organizations that sponsor these floats are not in themselves sinful, just as the parade of the Virgin Mary shouldn’t be.

I miss the “Forty Hours” parades and parades for the First Communicants that were 50 or 60 years ago. Perhaps we should go back to some of this to outwardly communicate our Faith.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Of course if I had all the answers, I would not have posted this here asking for help!

Thanks everybody, I feel a lot better about the whole thing now. I think you guys are right that though it may be somewhat “in poor taste” (or maybe not even, although it definitely feels that way to me), whether or not it goes against the Bible depends on what is in the hearts and minds of the people who are participating.

thanks Jombo for reading our answers, and responding to us

“Taste” is very much a subjective and national thing. English, Irish and American tastes tend to be more austere, and continental and South American more flamboyant.

I’m very glad that we have been able to help,

~ Edmundus