Please explain invincible ignorance

[Ben_F]

I’ve asked this question twice on QA with negative results. Maybe someone out there can help me. Invincible ignorance. My children were raised Catholic. One left the Church and is now what she calls Non Denominational. If she has what the Church calls invincible ignorance she has a shot at heaven after death. Does she have invincible ignorance? If I left the Church, do I have invincible ignorance. No I’m not planning on leaving the Church. How could I? Nothing else fits. But what about Catholics that do?

 

[Memaw]

I’ve asked this question twice on QA with negative results. Maybe someone out there can help me. Invincible ignorance. My children were raised Catholic. One left the Church and is now what she calls Non Denominational. If she has what the Church calls invincible ignorance she has a shot at heaven after death. Does she have invincible ignorance? If I left the Church, do I have invincible ignorance. No I’m not planning on leaving the Church. How could I? Nothing else fits. But what about Catholics that do?

Only God knows what your daughters reasons were for leaving the Catholic Church and joining a protestant denomination. She has walked away from the Holy Eucharist and I’m sure one day that longing will bring her back as it has many others. Sooo we Pray. We all have family members that do not practice their faith like they should, WHO knows why. Some do not really know it well and not interested in learning. some have fallen into the traps of our modern society. Say the Rosary every day for them and go to Mass as often as you can, every day if possible. Our Lady said at Fatima to PRAY for the conversion of sinners. I could tell you many stories of answered prayers. God Bless, Memaw

 

[dmar198]

I’ve asked this question twice on QA with negative results. Maybe someone out there can help me. Invincible ignorance. My children were raised Catholic. One left the Church and is now what she calls Non Denominational. If she has what the Church calls invincible ignorance she has a shot at heaven after death. Does she have invincible ignorance? If I left the Church, do I have invincible ignorance. No I’m not planning on leaving the Church. How could I? Nothing else fits. But what about Catholics that do?

Thomas Aquinas said that if a man was convinced that the Church was wrong, it would be a sin to stay in the Church. As long as your daughter is following her conscience, she will be okay. The Catechism says our duty is always to follow our concience. Sometimes the conscience might be misinformed and so her decision would be wrong, but if she, without knowing better, follows her conscience out of the Church, that is her duty and she will be fine.

Here’s from the Catechism:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61
IN BRIEF

1795 “Conscience is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths” (GS 16).

1796 Conscience is a judgment of reason by which the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act.

1797 For the man who has committed evil, the verdict of his conscience remains a pledge of conversion and of hope.

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.

Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm#1790

 

[Scoobyshme]

Invincible ignorance is not knowing through no fault of your own. In other words, you either didn’t have the mental capacity or never had the opportunity to know.

Culpable ignorance is not knowing because, as an act of your will, you chose not to know.

Offer prayer, sacrifice, etc., for your daughter. She evidently didn’t believe in the Eucharist because where she is now, she doesn’t have Jesus in the Eucharist. Only in the Eucharist is Jesus substantively present. Where she is now, she is deprived of five of the seven Sacraments. No priest, no Eucharist. No priest, no Confession. No priest, no Holy Orders. No priest, no Confirmation. No priest, no Sacrament of the Sick. All are avenues of Sanctifying Grace, without which no one can enter heaven.

One of the worse things we can do is make excuses for those who leave the faith and think “well they’re going to be okay because they’re just following their consciences.” We all have a “serious obligation” to “properly form” our conscience. A poorly formed conscience (one formed by the teachings of the Church) is what we are to follow.

 

[dmar198]

Invincible ignorance is not knowing through no fault of your own. In other words, you either didn’t have the mental capacity or never had the opportunity to know.

Culpable ignorance is not knowing because, as an act of your will, you chose not to know.

Offer prayer, sacrifice, etc., for your daughter. She evidently didn’t believe in the Eucharist because where she is now, she doesn’t have Jesus in the Eucharist. Only in the Eucharist is Jesus substantively present. Where she is now, she is deprived of five of the seven Sacraments. No priest, no Eucharist. No priest, no Confession. No priest, no Holy Orders. No priest, no Confirmation. No priest, no Sacrament of the Sick. All are avenues of Sanctifying Grace, without which no one can enter heaven.

One of the worse things we can do is make excuses for those who leave the faith and think “well they’re going to be okay because they’re just following their consciences.” We all have a “serious obligation” to “properly form” our conscience. A poorly formed conscience (one formed by the teachings of the Church) is what we are to follow.

I second that. I am one of those who emphasized conscience…but you’re right. Without proper formation, following conscience is a pretext for following error.

 

[rpp]

Thomas Aquinas said that if a man was convinced that the Church was wrong, it would be a sin to stay in the Church. As long as your daughter is following her conscience, she will be okay.
{chop}

Please provide a citation or link to support this. I have read a great deal of this great Doctor’s writings an have never encountered anything like this.

In addition, please show us in the Catechism where if someone willfully leaves the Church (aka rejects the truth), they will be “okay”. “Conscience” is not absolute. If someone’s conscience leads them to disagree with the Church, then, by definition, their conscience is flawed.

If what you are asserting is true, then heretics and apostates are “okay” as well. Clearly that is not the case.

Invincible ignorance means a person, for a variety of reasons, is not able to hear, understand or learn the Truth.

 

[dmar198]

Please provide a citation or link to support this. I have read a great deal of this great Doctor’s writings an have never encountered anything like this.

In the Summa Theologica, part II., question 19, article 5, “Does erring reason bind,” Aquinas answers in the affirmative, even saying that this is the same as asking whether an erring conscience binds. He states:

“As stated in the I, 79, 13, conscience is nothing else than the application of knowledge to some action. Now knowledge is in the reason. Therefore when the will is at variance with erring reason, it is against conscience. But every such will is evil; for it is written (Romans 14:23): “All that is not of faith”–i.e. all that is against conscience–“is sin.” Therefore the will is evil when it is at variance with erring reason.”
source]

He goes on to say that to believe in Christ is good, but if our conscience says otherwise, we would be erring to believe in Him. It is the same with the Church. His words: “In like manner, to believe in Christ is good in itself, and necessary for salvation: but the will does not tend thereto, except inasmuch as it is proposed by the reason. Consequently if it be proposed by the reason as something evil, the will tends to it as to something evil…[and] absolutely speaking, every will at variance with reason, whether right or erring, is always evil.”

Therefore, to will to follow Christ or His Church, if your reason says not to, is a sin, even if your reason is in error.

In addition, please show us in the Catechism where if someone willfully leaves the Church (aka rejects the truth), they will be “okay”.

The Catechism doesn’t say it is okay to WILLFULLY leave the Church. We’re talking about those who leave the Church NOT willfully, but because an erroneous conscience tells them to. The Catechism talks about THAT, in paraphraph 1970 and on:

“1970 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. … If…the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.”

“Conscience” is not absolute.

Aquinas says it is. “[W]hen erring reason proposes something as being commanded by God, then to scorn the dictate of reason is to scorn the commandment of God…[and] conscience is a kind of dictate of the reason.” source]

rpp:

If someone’s conscience leads them to disagree with the Church, then, by definition, their conscience is flawed.

Yes, their conscience is flawed, but they must obey it because it’s all they’ve got. Thomas Aquinas states that to will against conscience is sin, even if the conscience is in error. “[W]hen erring reason proposes something as being commanded by God, then to scorn the dictate of reason is to scorn the commandment of God.” source]

If what you are asserting is true, then heretics and apostates are “okay” as well. Clearly that is not the case.

They aren’t okay. They are teaching error, and either they do not realize it, which is bad, or they do realize it, which is worse; but in the latter case, if they teach error without realizing it, they are not blameworthy. It is the same with one who leaves the Church: if they do not realize that they are in error, they are still in error, but they are not blameworthy, and will not go to hell for their ignorance.

I second what the poster above us stated: if we insist on the primacy of conscience, without explaining that conscience needs proper formation, we lead people astray. To follow conscience, without proper formation, is to follow error. I am sorry that I didn’t make that clear enough in my initial post. However, what I stated, was not false.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Please provide a citation or link to support this. I have read a great deal of this great Doctor’s writings an have never encountered anything like this.

In addition, please show us in the Catechism where if someone willfully leaves the Church (aka rejects the truth), they will be “okay”. “Conscience” is not absolute. If someone’s conscience leads them to disagree with the Church, then, by definition, their conscience is flawed.

If what you are asserting is true, then heretics and apostates are “okay” as well. Clearly that is not the case.

Invincible ignorance means a person, for a variety of reasons, is not able to hear, understand or learn the Truth.

I second that. Show a citation dmar, because what you are spreading is scandal.

 

[Memaw]

I second that. Show a citation dmar, because what you are spreading is scandal.

I third it! Invincible ignorance means ‘lack of knowledge.’ To have been a Catholic and then to walk away from it is not exactly invincible ignorance. Like I said before, only God knows whats in the mind and heart of someone. Every Catholic has the obligation to have a rightly formed conscience and to follow that rightly formed conscience and what the Catholic Church teaches. Sadly one can harden their conscience against the teachings of the Church and rationalize it to suit themselves. I know Catholics that go to Church every Sunday but still aren’t interested in going any further in learning about their faith. They don’t realize they are cheating themselves out of the beauty, peace and Graces available to them thru the full practice of their faith. Someone once said its like passing up a Banquet for a snack. God Bless, Memaw

 

[dmar198]

I third it! Invincible ignorance means ‘lack of knowledge.’ To have been a Catholic and then to walk away from it is not exactly invincible ignorance. Like I said before, only God knows whats in the mind and heart of someone. Every Catholic has the obligation to have a rightly formed conscience and to follow that rightly formed conscience and what the Catholic Church teaches. Sadly one can harden their conscience against the teachings of the Church and rationalize it to suit themselves. I know Catholics that go to Church every Sunday but still aren’t interested in going any further in learning about their faith. They don’t realize they are cheating themselves out of the beauty, peace and Graces available to them thru the full practice of their faith. Someone once said its like passing up a Banquet for a snack. God Bless, Memaw

I fourth it, and I’m the original author. I wrote imprudently. If I could, I would change my answer to this:

Your daughter is in error by being out of the Church. Tell her the truth. Pray that, in God’s time, her conscience will be correctly formed, and that she will be reconciled to the Church, that the truth will settle from her mind to her heart. Remember that we cannot judge hearts.

 

[Memaw]

I fourth it, and I’m the original author. I wrote imprudently. If I could, I would change my answer to this:

Your daughter is in error by being out of the Church. Tell her the truth. Pray that, in God’s time, her conscience will be correctly formed, and that she will be reconciled to the Church, that the truth will settle from her mind to her heart. Remember that we cannot judge hearts.

Consider it changed!, God Bless, Memaw

 

[rpp]

In the Summa Theologica, part II., question 19, article 5, “Does erring reason bind,” Aquinas answers in the affirmative, even saying that this is the same as asking whether an erring conscience binds. He states: He goes on to say that to believe in Christ is good, but if our conscience says otherwise, we would be erring to believe in Him. It is the same with the Church. His words: “In like manner, to believe in Christ is good in itself, and necessary for salvation: but the will does not tend thereto, except inasmuch as it is proposed by the reason. Consequently if it be proposed by the reason as something evil, the will tends to it as to something evil…[and] absolutely speaking, every will at variance with reason, whether right or erring, is always evil.”

Therefore, to will to follow Christ or His Church, if your reason says not to, is a sin, even if your reason is in error.

The Catechism doesn’t say it is okay to WILLFULLY leave the Church. We’re talking about those who leave the Church NOT willfully, but because an erroneous conscience tells them to. The Catechism talks about THAT, in paraphraph 1970 and on:

“1970 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. … If…the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.” Aquinas says it is. “[W]hen erring reason proposes something as being commanded by God, then to scorn the dictate of reason is to scorn the commandment of God…[and] conscience is a kind of dictate of the reason.” source] Yes, their conscience is flawed, but they must obey it because it’s all they’ve got. Thomas Aquinas states that to will against conscience is sin, even if the conscience is in error. “[W]hen erring reason proposes something as being commanded by God, then to scorn the dictate of reason is to scorn the commandment of God.” source] They aren’t okay. They are teaching error, and either they do not realize it, which is bad, or they do realize it, which is worse; but in the latter case, if they teach error without realizing it, they are not blameworthy. It is the same with one who leaves the Church: if they do not realize that they are in error, they are still in error, but they are not blameworthy, and will not go to hell for their ignorance.

I second what the poster above us stated: if we insist on the primacy of conscience, without explaining that conscience needs proper formation, we lead people astray. To follow conscience, without proper formation, is to follow error. I am sorry that I didn’t make that clear enough in my initial post. However, what I stated, was not false.

Thank you for the citation, however, like so many people, you do not know how to properly read and interpret the Summa Theologica. You quoted the “on the contrary” portion which does not actually represent what St. Thomas Aquinas is thinking, but the conventional wisdom of the day, which is also often in error. Rather, if you want to assert the St. Thomas Aquinas actually said something, the only legitimate areas to quote are the “I answer that” and the “Reply to Objection x” sections.

Your reasoning and conclusions in this post is profoundly wrong, fundamentally and irredeemably flawed and wholly opposed to authentic and constant Catholic teaching. You make it even worse because you actually miscontrue what the teachings actually are to support your erroneous view.

 

[rpp]

I fourth it, and I’m the original author. I wrote imprudently. If I could, I would change my answer to this:

Your daughter is in error by being out of the Church. Tell her the truth. Pray that, in God’s time, her conscience will be correctly formed, and that she will be reconciled to the Church, that the truth will settle from her mind to her heart. Remember that we cannot judge hearts.

Oh, I did not see this at first. Thank you for this humble admission. You have earned my respect for this.

 

[steve_b]

I’ve asked this question twice on QA with negative results. Maybe someone out there can help me. Invincible ignorance. My children were raised Catholic. One left the Church and is now what she calls Non Denominational. If she has what the Church calls invincible ignorance she has a shot at heaven after death. Does she have invincible ignorance? If I left the Church, do I have invincible ignorance. No I’m not planning on leaving the Church. How could I? Nothing else fits. But what about Catholics that do?

Maybe these articles will help you answer your question.

" Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of “moral diligence”. This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the obligation mentioned above is to be interpreted strictly and exclusively as the duty incumbent on a man/woman to do something, the precise object of which is the acquisition of the needed knowledge. In other words the mere fact that one is bound by some extrinsic title to do something the performance of which would have actually, though not necessarily, given the required information, is negligible. When ignorance is deliberately aimed at and fostered, it is said to be affected, not because it is pretended, but rather because it is sought for by the agent so that he may not have to relinquish his purpose. Ignorance which practically no effort is made to dispel is termed crass or supine."

for the full article
newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

Here’s an article on vincible and invincible by Jimmy Akin
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

It seems to me that it’s hard for one to qualify for invincible ignorance.

Said another way, if invincible ignorance was easy to qualify for, EVERYONE would be invincibly ignorant and guilty of NOTHING.

But that’s just my take on it.

 

[thistle]

I’ve asked this question twice on QA with negative results. Maybe someone out there can help me. Invincible ignorance. My children were raised Catholic. One left the Church and is now what she calls Non Denominational. If she has what the Church calls invincible ignorance she has a shot at heaven after death. Does she have invincible ignorance? If I left the Church, do I have invincible ignorance. No I’m not planning on leaving the Church. How could I? Nothing else fits. But what about Catholics that do?

Invincible ignorance means not knowing about Christ and his Church but living a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings in that ignorance.

Catholics by definition CANNOT be invincibly ignorant. They do know about Christ and his Church.
Catholics can be vincibly ignorant, i.e. not know the Church teaches a particular teaching. However it is incumbent on each Catholic to learn the teachings of the Church and to try to understand these teachings.

A Catholic who leaves the Church commits a grave sin by this act and would in effect condemn themselves to Hell if they die unrepentent.

 

[Memaw]

Invincible ignorance means not knowing about Christ and his Church but living a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings in that ignorance.

Catholics by definition CANNOT be invincibly ignorant. They do know about Christ and his Church.
Catholics can be vincibly ignorant, i.e. not know the Church teaches a particular teaching. However it is incumbent on each Catholic to learn the teachings of the Church and to try to understand these teachings.

A Catholic who leaves the Church commits a grave sin by this act and would in effect condemn themselves to Hell if they die unrepentent.

I agree , but I will leave the judgment of the person to God. But I believe every committed Catholic has the obligation to do our best to help others know and understand their Catholic Faith so they will never want to leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Parents have a grave responsibility to do just that. But first THEY must know their faith well enough to do that. There are plenty of really great resources that can help us learn, starting with Catholic Answers. If you want to learn about the Catholic Church, don’t go to her enemies to ask about her, go to those who know and love her in her TRUTHS given by Christ. . The Catholic Church hasn’t withstood 2,000 years of persecution on her own. She has been guided by the HOLY SPIRIT as Jesus promised. Show me any other institution that has survived that long in such a hostile world. And she continues to grow in spite of those from within and without that try to destroy her. As Christ promised, His Church will be here till the end of the world. Nothing will ever destroy Christ’s Church. The TRUTH will set you free. God Bless, Memaw

 

[thistle]

I agree , but I will leave the judgment of the person to God. But I believe every committed Catholic has the obligation to do our best to help others know and understand their Catholic Faith so they will never want to leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Parents have a grave responsibility to do just that. But first THEY must know their faith well enough to do that. There are plenty of really great resources that can help us learn, starting with Catholic Answers. If you want to learn about the Catholic Church, don’t go to her enemies to ask about her, go to those who know and love her in her TRUTHS given by Christ. . The Catholic Church hasn’t withstood 2,000 years of persecution on her own. She has been guided by the HOLY SPIRIT as Jesus promised. Show me any other institution that has survived that long in such a hostile world. And she continues to grow in spite of those from within and without that try to destroy her. As Christ promised, His Church will be here till the end of the world. Nothing will ever destroy Christ’s Church. The TRUTH will set you free. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Newbie2]

Invincible ignorance means not knowing about Christ and his Church but living a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings in that ignorance.

Catholics by definition CANNOT be invincibly ignorant. They do know about Christ and his Church.
Catholics can be vincibly ignorant, i.e. not know the Church teaches a particular teaching. However it is incumbent on each Catholic to learn the teachings of the Church and to try to understand these teachings.

A Catholic who leaves the Church commits a grave sin by this act and would in effect condemn themselves to Hell if they die unrepentent.

I’m not sure if this is entirely accurate under all circumstances. What about marginal Catholics? Slept through CCD, are presently Creasters and who’s spouse convinces them that the Methodist church, for example, is a better place to worship.

Or those who are very unsure about themselves and are easily led astray due to personality issues?

I would suggest rather that properly formed Catholics cannot be invincibly ignorant.

As far as condeming one’s self to hell by leaving the CC (unrepentant), they would first have to know the seriousness of what leaving the Church means. If they’ve never been taught the seriousness of such, their culpability could be questionable.

 

[Memaw]

I’m not sure if this is entirely accurate under all circumstances. What about marginal Catholics? Slept through CCD, are presently Creasters and who’s spouse convinces them that the Methodist church, for example, is a better place to worship.

Or those who are very unsure about themselves and are easily led astray due to personality issues?

I would suggest rather that properly formed Catholics cannot be invincibly ignorant.

As far as condeming one’s self to hell by leaving the CC (unrepentant), they would first have to know the seriousness of what leaving the Church means. If they’ve never been taught the seriousness of such, their culpability could be questionable./QUOTE

In my many years of dealing with people, I find that so many of them leave the Catholic Faith because they don’t agree with her teachings on birth control, homosexuality, abortion, living together without marriage, marring outside the Church, etc., etc. They know what the church teaches but do not want to live it. Maybe even got in a disagreement with a priest over it and left. Cafeteria Catholics I think is the name given to them. One even said to me, “Because I married a divorced women outside the Church, I didn’t follow their rules and the Church doesn’t want me anymore so I don’t want it.” Blaming the Church for their state of affairs.
I doubt anyone could sleep thru 8 years of CCD. It is our obligation to learn the faith, not the Church’s obligation to force us to know it even when we don’t want to. You can learn sooo much from Sunday Mass if your there and you listen. Also I am shocked at how many Catholics never or very seldom watch EWTN. Many I talk to don’t even know what channel its on, and couldn’t care less. I heard someone say one time that if you ask most Catholics what the name of the 10 most popular TV shows are, they could name them, but if ask them to name the 10 Commandments, they couldn’t do it. I would say indifference is a very big obstacle to many. Don’t care what the Church teaches, don’t wanna know what the church teaches and then go off to some thing much easier. We have a free will but we are responsible how we use it. We can’t go around blaming everyone else for our lack of faith. Its time we start acting like adult Catholics. The resources are out there abundantly but you do have to want to learn and then go to ones that can be trusted. Like Catholic Answers and EWTN and they can direct you to some great books that are available too. Ones you can TRUST! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Newbie2]

Newbie2;6758302:

I’m not sure if this is entirely accurate under all circumstances. What about marginal Catholics? Slept through CCD, are presently Creasters and who’s spouse convinces them that the Methodist church, for example, is a better place to worship.

Or those who are very unsure about themselves and are easily led astray due to personality issues?

I would suggest rather that properly formed

Catholics cannot be invincibly ignorant.

As far as condeming one’s self to hell by leaving the CC (unrepentant), they would first have to know the seriousness of what leaving the Church means. If they’ve never been taught the seriousness of such, their culpability could be questionable.

I suggest that “Cafeteria Catholics” refers to those who are still part of the Catholic Church, maybe go to mass every now and then, but only choose to follow what they find convenient. If someone left the Catholic Church, I don’t think Cafeteria Catholic would apply to them, since they’ve pretty much rejected the entire lot of her teaching.

Having taught 7th and 8th grade CCD, I can tell you it’s possible to “sleep” through several years of classes and not come out with a thing. In my experience, either the parents were good examples for their kids or not. Every week we’d ask how many kids went to mass the previous weekend and it was constantly about 1/3…the same 1/3 every week.

I think it’d be safe to say that at least half of the kids had no clue about the teachings of the Catholic Church by the time they were getting confirmed. Our DRE, Priest and Deacon have confirmed that notion through their confirmation interviews. At least half the kids didn’t know the very basics of Christianity, let alone Catholic Christianity.

So are these kids invincibly ignorant? Good question. I’d say “maybe”.

Are they going to fulfill their obligation to learn about the faith on their own after confirmation? Even the most optimistic cannot say with a straight faith that they think such kids will do so. Why? Their parents don’t care about it so why should they?

Maybe someday the seeds that were planted will grow. Maybe it will take a traumatic event, maybe hitting rock bottom, maybe in 30 or 40 years time they’ll start to ask life’s big questions.

I’d also say for the sake of discussion that the kids of the Westboro Baptist Church wackos are likely to be “invincibly ignorant”.