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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The Intercession of the Saints
Jim
Please explain the basis for Catholics believing that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers
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The Intercession of the Saints
Jim
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BoomerangToo
Guest
The Jews have always believed that the righteous dead can intercede for us. Christians have inherited that tradition. See what Rabbi’s say themselves:
Q: I often receive emails from different organizations offering that a rabbi will pray for me at this or that great rabbi’s grave. Does it really make a difference where one prays? Isn’t praying to a dead rabbi for salvation practically idolatry?
A: It’s a very important question. The notion of praying at the graves of the righteous is well-established. The Talmud tells us that Caleb, one of the spies sent to inspect the Holy Land, separated from the rest of the group to visit the Cave of the Patriarchs (ma’arat ha’machpailah) in Hebron. He prostrated himself before the cave and said to them “My fathers, plead for mercy for me that I be saved from the evil designs of the spies” (Sotah 34b).
Elsewhere the Talmud mentions a custom to visit a cemetery during times of calamity, such as a drought. The reason, according to one opinion in the Talmud, is so that the dead will ask for mercy for us in Heaven (Ta’anit 16a).
www.aish.com
https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...k-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm
Q: “How can you take people to pray at the graves of departed righteous Jews? We are supposed to pray only to G-d and to believe that G-d is the source of all blessings. Is it not “idol-worship” to pray to a tzadik at his grave?”
A: Praying at “holy grave sites” is a time-honored and widespread Jewish practice. Of course, praying to the dead or even asking them for information, holding seances, etc. is clearly prohibited (see Deut.18:11) and is related to avodah zarah - idol worship. Therefore, we are obligated to assume that this is not what Jews at grave sites are doing. Outward appearances, and perhaps even the words of our sages in this matter, may be easy to misconstrue. Nevertheless, we must be very, very careful about labeling the practices of large numbers of G-d fearing Jews with the grievous sin of “idol-worship.”
… The Zohar [III:70B ff–quoted in Tanya IV: 27 (p.292)] states that without the prayers of tzadikim, the world would not endure for a single moment. Tzadikim shield the world, and even more so after their death than in their earthly lives… In our days, we too, utilize this same principle of calling upon the merit of departed tzaddikim, their benevolent prayers, and the holiness of their final resting places. In fact, not only is this practice permitted, it is recommended; and in certain situations, such as severe droughts, it is actually legislated [Taanit 16a].
http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=b13q16
Q: I often receive emails from different organizations offering that a rabbi will pray for me at this or that great rabbi’s grave. Does it really make a difference where one prays? Isn’t praying to a dead rabbi for salvation practically idolatry?
A: It’s a very important question. The notion of praying at the graves of the righteous is well-established. The Talmud tells us that Caleb, one of the spies sent to inspect the Holy Land, separated from the rest of the group to visit the Cave of the Patriarchs (ma’arat ha’machpailah) in Hebron. He prostrated himself before the cave and said to them “My fathers, plead for mercy for me that I be saved from the evil designs of the spies” (Sotah 34b).
Elsewhere the Talmud mentions a custom to visit a cemetery during times of calamity, such as a drought. The reason, according to one opinion in the Talmud, is so that the dead will ask for mercy for us in Heaven (Ta’anit 16a).
Prayer at Graves of Righteous - Aish.com
www.aish.com
https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...k-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm
Q: “How can you take people to pray at the graves of departed righteous Jews? We are supposed to pray only to G-d and to believe that G-d is the source of all blessings. Is it not “idol-worship” to pray to a tzadik at his grave?”
A: Praying at “holy grave sites” is a time-honored and widespread Jewish practice. Of course, praying to the dead or even asking them for information, holding seances, etc. is clearly prohibited (see Deut.18:11) and is related to avodah zarah - idol worship. Therefore, we are obligated to assume that this is not what Jews at grave sites are doing. Outward appearances, and perhaps even the words of our sages in this matter, may be easy to misconstrue. Nevertheless, we must be very, very careful about labeling the practices of large numbers of G-d fearing Jews with the grievous sin of “idol-worship.”
… The Zohar [III:70B ff–quoted in Tanya IV: 27 (p.292)] states that without the prayers of tzadikim, the world would not endure for a single moment. Tzadikim shield the world, and even more so after their death than in their earthly lives… In our days, we too, utilize this same principle of calling upon the merit of departed tzaddikim, their benevolent prayers, and the holiness of their final resting places. In fact, not only is this practice permitted, it is recommended; and in certain situations, such as severe droughts, it is actually legislated [Taanit 16a].
http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=b13q16
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Autumn-Smoke
Guest
This is just my personal observation, but I think this statement by Peter in his 2nd letter is very curious:
" I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body, since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times."
My observation is: was St. Peter only referring to his writings being left behind, or did he understand that when he was in Heaven he would still have the power of prayer which would affect a certain influence upon the earth after his death? It’s debatable, but perhaps worth pondering nonetheless.
(2 Peter 1:13-15)
" I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body, since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times."
My observation is: was St. Peter only referring to his writings being left behind, or did he understand that when he was in Heaven he would still have the power of prayer which would affect a certain influence upon the earth after his death? It’s debatable, but perhaps worth pondering nonetheless.
(2 Peter 1:13-15)
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Limoncello4021
Guest
Certain saints are known for helping us in certain matters, and long tradition teaches us so. You can search online for patron saints–saints for various causes. Over time as Catholics we kind of gravitate toward certain saints, depending on our needs, culture, life circumstances, etc. You might start with your name–which saint bears your same name? At confirmation, we add a saint name and thus have a patron interceeding for us. Then there are “all around” saints that seem to answer all types of prayer. Personally, I go to the top all the time and pray ardently to the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, those closest to Jesus. St. Joseph is particularly great for any issues with one’s home and for travel. I also pray a lot to St. Therese of Lisieux since her writings have been so influential in my life. Right now there’s a sad case of a lost dog in my neighborhood and I’m praying to St. Francis of Assisi. St. Anthony helps with all those annoying things you lose. St. Padre Pio is one of those wonder-working saints who always seems to answer. Anyway, read up on the saints and just ask any of them for help in any matter large and small. They are VERY happy to pray for us, and due to their faithfulness to God, God (who is never outdone in generosity) allows them the joy of helping us.
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BoomerangToo
Guest
It sounds like to me that he was NOT referring to writings. The whole point of writings is to eliminate the need to “recall” things. Recall involves memory. You don’t need a great memory when you have writings. Interesting observation.
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Pat_Albertson
Guest
Yes indeed.
All who share in the beatific vision are privy to whatever God knows up to the limits of their understanding.
Yes, you could go directly to God, but God loves that we love each other, and that “we” that I refer to includes the saints. God delights in helping his angels and saints achieve what they think ought to be achieved, and if that includes helping us, well, then so it does.
At this time, we have more saints who want to help us than ever before, because we have more saints (and by that I mean even the ones unknown to us) now than ever before.
This is the beatific vision in action, except that here Jesus is discussing angels.
All who share in the beatific vision are privy to whatever God knows up to the limits of their understanding.
Yes, you could go directly to God, but God loves that we love each other, and that “we” that I refer to includes the saints. God delights in helping his angels and saints achieve what they think ought to be achieved, and if that includes helping us, well, then so it does.
At this time, we have more saints who want to help us than ever before, because we have more saints (and by that I mean even the ones unknown to us) now than ever before.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
From the same article I linked to
Jim
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joyfulandactive
Guest
Tommy999 I am a convert from atheism, I was Baptized and received my First Reconciliation, Holy Communion and Confirmation in 1987 when I was 19.
I see the saints in heaven as all our brothers and sisters in the faith who have gone before us. In my life I’ve met so many beautiful souls devoted to God and it is so wonderful to know on the other side of death they are alive and joined with us, continuing their life of prayer and love but finally home in the fullness of the presence of God. I would often pray a novena to the saints at night with my children and at the end we would always say “All holy men and women” response: Pray for us, because of course we only know a few of the countless cloud of witnesses before the throne of God.
Are you aware of the Church’s teaching on the Church Triumphant (The Saints in Heaven) The Church Suffering (Those in purgatory) and the Church Militant: us!
God bless you as you respond to Christ’s call.
I see the saints in heaven as all our brothers and sisters in the faith who have gone before us. In my life I’ve met so many beautiful souls devoted to God and it is so wonderful to know on the other side of death they are alive and joined with us, continuing their life of prayer and love but finally home in the fullness of the presence of God. I would often pray a novena to the saints at night with my children and at the end we would always say “All holy men and women” response: Pray for us, because of course we only know a few of the countless cloud of witnesses before the throne of God.
Are you aware of the Church’s teaching on the Church Triumphant (The Saints in Heaven) The Church Suffering (Those in purgatory) and the Church Militant: us!
God bless you as you respond to Christ’s call.
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KevinK
Guest
But he is asking the BASIS for this belief.
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anna
Guest
Their are Saints in Heaven with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They have the grace of being able to intercede for us and God does listen to their prayers…St. Therese of Lisieux said she would spend her heaven doing good on earth. St. John Paul II is my personal favorite I was privileged enough to attend a Mass he said here in Philly when I was a kid. To now know this man is now a Saint and yes he has interceded for me on more then one occasion . I pray that one day you have the joy of knowing that yes, the Saint you are asking for prayers is indeed listening and interceding for you. God bless and keep you.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I gave him a teaching with references 2 posts down from this post you responded to.
Faith doesn’t need a “basis” though.
Faith doesn’t need a “basis” though.
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Gab123
Guest
Those in heaven are perfectly united to God Thus they can hear our prayers by the mere fact that they are in union with God who is all-knowing and permits those in heaven know what is going on on earth. Thus Jesus speaks about the rejoicing in heaven when one sinner repents:
“I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” Luke Luke 15:7
Scripture speaks about the great cloud of witnesses of souls who were saved and witness out pilgrimage on earth (Hebrews 12:1)
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KevinK
Guest
Of there is no “basis” for a faith position, then what distinguishes Christianity from any other religious faith? Surely the basis of the Christian faith is things like Jesus, the Bible etc.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
If you don’t have faith, then Jesus is just some guy who knew John the Baptist and was executed by the Romans, and the Bible is just some book written by other guys with good imaginations.
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KevinK
Guest
But those things are “the basis” of our faith. Otherwise you are untethered from anything and have no “basis” for believing what you do.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
“Our” Faith?
You’re a Catholic? I wouldn’t have thought so.
In any event, maybe Your faith needs this “basis” thingy but mine doesn’t, unless you’re calling the Holy Spirit a “basis”.
So you should frame that as talking just about Your faith. Not my faith and certainly not “Ours”.
I must go to the supermarket now, and you’re hijacking the OP’s thread, so g’night.
You’re a Catholic? I wouldn’t have thought so.
In any event, maybe Your faith needs this “basis” thingy but mine doesn’t, unless you’re calling the Holy Spirit a “basis”.
So you should frame that as talking just about Your faith. Not my faith and certainly not “Ours”.
I must go to the supermarket now, and you’re hijacking the OP’s thread, so g’night.
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Francis
Guest
Well He still has the Key’s and the staff
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Francis
Guest
@Tommy999
That’s fine, you can do as the Holy Spirit inspires you.
When is you Baptism Day ,Birthday ,wedding Days and Confirmation Saints May be not yet and also saints as according to you profession ,you can pray to as many of them the list is endless ,they will help you in day to day struggles against sin and temptations and bring you close to Jesus ,etc
You can have very close friendship with these saints who will intercedes for you and also warn and protect you from many dangers, and pray to Jesus in you needs ,Mother Mary will quicken the your petition according to the will of God as she did it at the wedding at cana
Maybe their names keep coming up in conversations about the faith. Maybe pictures of them, with quotes from their written works have been lighting up your social media feeds. Maybe your pastor mentions them in the homily or maybe you suddenly have the desire to learn more about them. They can be some of your favorite people, or they can be someone you’ve never heard about before. Yes, I am talking about saint stalkers.
I first became aware that saints can follow you about two years ago. Venerable Fulton Sheen, though he isn’t a saint yet, was diligently pursuing me from Heaven. He was everywhere: in homilies, in conversations in my theology classes and between friends, in my social media feeds. Not a day went by when someone around me did not mention the dear bishop’s name. After a month or two of this, I finally decided to learn more about Fulton Sheen and check out some of his written work. And my life changed when I did. I discovered what an intelligent, faithful man he was and how he simply and eloquently put forth the truths of the Catholic faith and through that discovery, I made heavenly friend who has been a help and a teacher ever since. The same thing has happened with St. John Paul II, St. Josemaria Escriva, and most recently, St. Thomas Aquinas.
https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/heart/heart1.htm
Blessed be the Most Loving Heart and Sweet Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the most glorious Virgin Mary, His Mother, in eternity and forever. Amen.
That’s fine, you can do as the Holy Spirit inspires you.
Devotion to Mother Mary and St Joseph are the foremost in catholic devotions,then next the Apostles,other saints
When is you Baptism Day ,Birthday ,wedding Days and Confirmation Saints May be not yet and also saints as according to you profession ,you can pray to as many of them the list is endless ,they will help you in day to day struggles against sin and temptations and bring you close to Jesus ,etc
You can have very close friendship with these saints who will intercedes for you and also warn and protect you from many dangers, and pray to Jesus in you needs ,Mother Mary will quicken the your petition according to the will of God as she did it at the wedding at cana
Saint stalkers and what to do about them
Saint stalkers and what to do about them
Maybe their names keep coming up in conversations about the faith. Maybe pictures of them, with quotes from their written works have been lighting up your social media feeds. Maybe your pastor mentions them in the homily or maybe you suddenly have the desire to learn more about them.
www.catholic365.com
Maybe their names keep coming up in conversations about the faith. Maybe pictures of them, with quotes from their written works have been lighting up your social media feeds. Maybe your pastor mentions them in the homily or maybe you suddenly have the desire to learn more about them. They can be some of your favorite people, or they can be someone you’ve never heard about before. Yes, I am talking about saint stalkers.
I first became aware that saints can follow you about two years ago. Venerable Fulton Sheen, though he isn’t a saint yet, was diligently pursuing me from Heaven. He was everywhere: in homilies, in conversations in my theology classes and between friends, in my social media feeds. Not a day went by when someone around me did not mention the dear bishop’s name. After a month or two of this, I finally decided to learn more about Fulton Sheen and check out some of his written work. And my life changed when I did. I discovered what an intelligent, faithful man he was and how he simply and eloquently put forth the truths of the Catholic faith and through that discovery, I made heavenly friend who has been a help and a teacher ever since. The same thing has happened with St. John Paul II, St. Josemaria Escriva, and most recently, St. Thomas Aquinas.
https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/heart/heart1.htm
Blessed be the Most Loving Heart and Sweet Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the most glorious Virgin Mary, His Mother, in eternity and forever. Amen.
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midori
Guest
The most important thing for a prayer to be effective is that it isn’t contrary to God’s will. Because nothing impure/unclean can enter Heaven, right? And since people in Heaven aren’t capable of desiring things contrary to God’s will, it would further follow that they wouldn’t be inclined to present prayers from us that are contrary to God’s will. So sometimes, a humble, “Dear God, please let your will be done in x circumstance, and give me the graces you most want to give me” is the best prayer, whether you ask for a saint in heaven to lend their efforts to joining you, or whether you’re praying directly to God without the aid of an intercessor.
Imagine that you’re in a situation where you want assistance with x. Saying, “Can anyone help me with x?” is fine— but sometimes, picking out someone specific to ask for help with x is more direct. So, for example, if I know of someone who’s having difficulty in their marriage, I can pray for them without anyone specific in mind— but I might turn to St. Joseph, because he was entrusted with the temporal support and physical protection of both Jesus and Mary, and as the Head of the Holy Family, he’s an ideal patron to ask to intercede on behalf of men who are struggling to be the husbands and fathers their wives and children need. Or, more obscurely, I might try St. Rita, who’s the patron saint of difficult marriages-- she was married to a bad-tempered man with gambling debts who may have physically abused her, but through her patience, humility, and prayers, she eventually earned her husband’s conversion. Or I might turn to Sts. Louis and Zelie Martin, who were the first married couple to be canonized together. They had nine children, five of whom survived, and all five of whom entered religious life— and one of them was St. Therese of Lisieux. They must have done something right.
There are other saints as well-- St. Adelaide of Burgundy (patron saint of Second Marriages), St. Gengulphus of Burgundy (patron saint of Difficult Marriages), St. Priscilla (patron saint of Good Marriages), and so on. So it’s really a matter of finding a connection with someone who you say, “Ahhh, they were on this same path, and had the same difficulties, and how did they overcome them?” And so not only do you look to them for their prayers, but you might also look to them as a role model to inspire you to handle a difficult situation.
But because we’re all united in the Body of Christ, things like language or geography don’t limit us as to who we can approach, just like time doesn’t limit us to only asking for the prayers of the living-on-earth.
Imagine that you’re in a situation where you want assistance with x. Saying, “Can anyone help me with x?” is fine— but sometimes, picking out someone specific to ask for help with x is more direct. So, for example, if I know of someone who’s having difficulty in their marriage, I can pray for them without anyone specific in mind— but I might turn to St. Joseph, because he was entrusted with the temporal support and physical protection of both Jesus and Mary, and as the Head of the Holy Family, he’s an ideal patron to ask to intercede on behalf of men who are struggling to be the husbands and fathers their wives and children need. Or, more obscurely, I might try St. Rita, who’s the patron saint of difficult marriages-- she was married to a bad-tempered man with gambling debts who may have physically abused her, but through her patience, humility, and prayers, she eventually earned her husband’s conversion. Or I might turn to Sts. Louis and Zelie Martin, who were the first married couple to be canonized together. They had nine children, five of whom survived, and all five of whom entered religious life— and one of them was St. Therese of Lisieux. They must have done something right.
There are other saints as well-- St. Adelaide of Burgundy (patron saint of Second Marriages), St. Gengulphus of Burgundy (patron saint of Difficult Marriages), St. Priscilla (patron saint of Good Marriages), and so on. So it’s really a matter of finding a connection with someone who you say, “Ahhh, they were on this same path, and had the same difficulties, and how did they overcome them?” And so not only do you look to them for their prayers, but you might also look to them as a role model to inspire you to handle a difficult situation.But because we’re all united in the Body of Christ, things like language or geography don’t limit us as to who we can approach, just like time doesn’t limit us to only asking for the prayers of the living-on-earth.
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midori
Guest
Cute story-- I was at an Anglican cathedral for a class. One of the class organizers had left early… but about 30 minutes later, came back to our room. At some point during the day, she had put down her parking pass, which she normally wore on a lanyard around her neck, and now she couldn’t find it. She had been all over the complex, and was looking everywhere to see where she had put it down. But she hadn’t found it, and was now turning the classroom upside down trying to find it. She didn’t mind paying the $15 to escape the garage, but if she had to tell the admin that there was a parking pass unaccounted for, there were going to be a lot of upset people!
She’d been looking around the room for the last five minutes, and no luck.
I thought to myself, “St. Anthony, please help her find her parking pass. Glory be to the—”
“FOUND IT!”
She’d been looking around the room for the last five minutes, and no luck.
I thought to myself, “St. Anthony, please help her find her parking pass. Glory be to the—”
“FOUND IT!”
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