Please explain the Catholic understanding of "perseverance of the saints"

[TULIPed]

It denies mortal sin.

Reformed theology would say that all sin is “mortal” in the sense that any at all separates us from God. This confirms what all Christians find as they grow in their faith - rather than congratulating themselves on overcoming sin, they become more and more aware of their sin and great need for a Savior (which prompted St. Paul to say “…of all sinners, I am the worst!” 1Tim1:15)

In this man-made invention there is a conflation of being born-again and being of the elect.

I tell my daughter - pay no attention to what a man says - only to what he does. Reformed theology asks this question - what do people DO when they are born again? We would say Paul best describes being “born again” (which Jesus requires in John 3) here in Romans 6:

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”

Reformed Christians are - or should be - constantly looking for evidence of ACTUALLY being born again. Are we seeing the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives? Are we loving God with all our hearts and strength? Are we loving our neighbors as ourselves? IF we do - THEN, we can claim this promise:

“ 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)

 

[TULIPed]

Else why would Jesus tell us to repent?

The power (gas for the car as you would say) to repent comes from God. A better argument is this one - why would Jesus ask us to do this:

“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.“

In my opinion if I were you and arguing with a Calvinist, that would be my go to. That one is a toughie. The only response from a Calvinist is a shoulder shrug and “I do it because He tells me to.”

 

[Julius_Caesar]

In my opinion if I were you and arguing with a Calvinist, that would be my go to. That one is a toughie. The only response from a Calvinist is a shoulder shrug and “I do it because He tells me to.

And you have the free will not to.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Reformed Christians are - or should be - constantly looking for evidence of ACTUALLY being born again. Are we seeing the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives? Are we loving God with all our hearts and strength? Are we loving our neighbors as ourselves? IF we do - THEN, we can claim this promise:

When they should be looking for how to STAY SAVED.

Because true Christians can lose their stability.

Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken through angels proved to be so firm that every violation or disobedience received its just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him,
Hebrews 2:1‭-‬3 NET

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . .

Reformed theology would say that all sin is “mortal” in the sense that any at all separates us from God.

This is a partial truth.

Does “reformed theology” think all sin separates Christians from the LIFE of God?

Does “reformed theology” understand a “mortal” wound results in “death” and that you cannot have “death” unless you first have “life”?

(And so they are conflating Adam and Eve’s fall [Adam and Eve had great gifts by NATURE] with our sins [denying the words of Christ: “To whom much is given, much is REQUIRED”.] We do not have those gifts by NATURE St. Paul tells us. We have MORE gifts by GRACE, but our falken NATURE remains, so there is an interior battle that is ongoing in this “Valley of Tears”).

Does “reformed theology” understand the difference between “the elect” and being “born again”?
Because my Baptist communion that I attended did NOT know the difference and ASSUMED that if you are born again and had God as your Father, you are automatically of the elect. You will automatically persevere. You would automatically have your sins forgiven.

Which is another grotesque take on salvation by my anabaptist friends. They reduce justification down to forgiveness of sins (instead of going beyond that and seeing yourself as a REAL ACTUAL child of God, with the LIFE od Christ IN YOU, transformed by grace instead of merely “covered”.)

And because their tradition teaches them to think this way, they CANNOT differentiate God at work IN YOU, both for the will and good pleasure of the Father so you can WORK out your salvation. (They are forced to DENY these and other Scripture verses so they can conform to their man-made traditions.)

So they say straw men like . . . .

rather than congratulating themselves on overcoming sin

 

[TULIPed]

When they should be looking for how to STAY SAVED.

How much credit do you take for “staying saved”? Reformed Christians give all the credit to God.

 

[TULIPed]

This is a partial truth.

What sin do you know of that doesn’t separate us from God?

(I think we’re closer than you think on this matter BTW…)

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . .

What sin do you know of that doesn’t separate us from God?

Your question has a built-in presupposition that I won’t abide by (on purpose or not, I don’t know).

I am going to assume you really meant . . . . .

What sin do you know of that doesn’t separate us from THE LIFE OF God?

Any sin that is NOT mortal (which is WHY it is “NOT mortal”).

1st JOHN 5:16-17 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.
There is sin which is mortal;
I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17
All wrongdoing is sin,
but there is sin which is not mortal.

The Church that Jesus founded (the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church) frequently calls this non-mortal sin . . . . “venial sin”. But “non-mortal sin” is fine too.

I believe these verses.
The Baptist “Bible” Church I attended did NOT BELIEVE these verses.

 

[TULIPed]

Any sin that is NOT mortal (which is WHY it is “NOT mortal”).

It’s an interesting discussion - ranking sins. The Sermon on the Mount has much to say about such things:

“ For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

And…

“ 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

We’ll have to agree to disagree on sin that isn’t mortal. In any case - can one go wrong taking sin too seriously?

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . .

“ For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

This is irrelevant to the argument you are making against Catholic teaching.

We never teach our righteousness on our own.

We agree with you, that our righteousness comes FROM Jesus. But we affirm more.

We also affirm that our righteousness comes from being IN Jesus.

We affirm ALL the verses.

22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

Whoever says “you fool” to his brother is a curse.

It comes from “The Fool say in his heart there is no God.” from Psalm 14.

Dr. Pitre explains this as a curse well from Hebrew sources.

It is saying (to your brother no less!) “May you wind up in hell.”

It is a curse against your own brother.

That’s WHY this brings on “the hell of fire” without repentance.

.

TULIPed . . .

We’ll have to agree to disagree on sin that isn’t mortal.

• God Almighty (The Holy Spirit) - there is sin which is not mortal.
• St. John in the Bible - there is sin which is not mortal.
• The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church - there is sin which is not mortal.
• Cathoholic - there is sin which is not mortal.
• TULIPed - We’ll have to agree to disagree on sin that isn’t mortal.

.

1st JOHN 5:16-17 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin , he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.
There is sin which is mortal ;
I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17
All wrongdoing is sin,
but there is sin which is not mortal.

.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on sin that isn’t mortal.

I will agree with that. (But . . . even the sin of denying what the Holy Spirit says too TULIPed.)

 

[c4csp]

If we are in a state of grace, God will provide sufficient grace for us to remain in a state of grace.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

So is it God’s fault that one slips? Or was God telling us to stay faithful meaningless since we know that’s a given?

Double edged sword.

 

[TULIPed]

We affirm ALL the verses.

As do we. Especially this one:

“48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Look - in some respects I’m jerking your chain a bit. We agree that there are differences between sin. Murder is obviously more serious than say…rooting for the Yankees (maybe?)

My point around this topic is that our entire effort with regard to combatting sin comes from Christ. Anything we do is thanks to Him. What we don’t do is thanks to us. We are entirely accountable for our actions, and entirely dependent upon Him.

If he is for us, who can be against us? If He is actually active in our lives, I think we’ll persevere to the end - not because of what we do, but because of what He does for us and in us.

 

[Cathoholic]

“48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Look - in some respects I’m jerking your chain a bit.

Keep jerking my chain then.

Because Catholic Christians affirm ALL the verses including the need for perfection (which is WHY the Bible also teaches Purgatory).

Sooner or later we are perfected. If not, we are choosing to not go to Heaven.

If he is for us, who can be against us?

Ourselves. That is why some people as St. Paul says, they “Make shipwreck of their faith”.

Others have “abandoned” the faith (notice you can “abandon” your faith).

And Jesus warns we must “REMAIN” IN Him (in the Vine).

Notice you can choose to NOT remain in the Vine.

And if we refuse to “remain in” Jesus, we will “be cast aside and burned”. (Hardly a picture of “perseverance” for those provisional saints who were in “the Vine” or in Jesus).

By the way. THAT is WHY they were “Saints”. Because they were in Jesus. Not because of themselves.

 

[TULIPed]

So is it God’s fault that one slips?

Certainly not. Paul addresses this well here:

“For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

We are entirely accountable for our actions - and entirely reliant upon God’s mercy. Again - I think that perhaps Catholics have a bigger problem with how poorly catechized Reformed Christians live out their faith, then with the theology itself.

If Reformed Christians are using the idea of perseverance to continue to sin, then they don’t understand the concept, and I would question the veracity of their relationship with Christ. Similarly, if Catholics use the Eucharist as a “car wash”, i.e. “I can do anything I want as long as I confess it and make it to Mass since I’m clean as a whistle afterwards”, I would question their bona fides as well.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Certainly not.

So based on that, do we still need to cooperate with grace?

The answer is Yes.

As Paul wrote:

Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it.
Hebrews 4:1 NET

We are entirely accountable for our actions - and entirely reliant upon God’s mercy.

Bingo. Not one or the other. Both.

 

[Mintaka]

Denigrating the free will of humans, who were created by God in the image and likeness of God, is a denigration of God’s love, wisdom, power, and will.

So if you want to give glory to God, you have to give glory to Him as a daring and loving Creator. He does not turn us into puppets. He did not force Mary to be Jesus’ mother; He announced her appointment and asked for her reply, by sending her a messenger. He wooed Israel back when she wandered, and He asks us to live in Him.

And yes, from some unloving view outside the family, it might seem that God shouldn’t be happy if we respond positively to what He asks and gives. But God says it makes Him happy! God says it’s important to give a cup of cold water, even though He is the master of all the seas on all the planets in all the universe. God says He will reward us for the tiny little things we do.

So yeah, I think it’s important to keep God’s likes and dislikes in mind.